Since I can't post this in the staff board now....

[Mindless]

Originally Posted by Pugz

I agree with noble.. we do have a revolving door policy in place for mods that can contribute and want to commit later.. but if the work is slacking then we need to make moves to correct it.. i said it before.. if you cant commit the time then really you should step down and let some new blood step in .

And that's fine but why are we demodding people w/o saying anything to them at all first? I wasn't necessarily arguing against demodding them as much demodding them and not letting them be here in the board because guys like Jason and Just C have been around for a long time and done a whole lot for this site so they deserve to be in this board regardless of their activity as a staff member.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

Jason was re-added because he's been around so long but Just C and Phil Banks weren't. Why, because they haven't been around as long? How can we defend against charges of favoritism if both Jason and one of the other current mods go inactive and we demod the other mod but not Jason? Perhaps your position is we don't demod anyone because "activity isn't exactly a flurry around here." Active mods are exactly what's helping to generate the little activity that's still left through organizing tournaments/forum games etc!! If there's no work to do, we as staff should MAKE WORK for ourselves to do. Perhaps we have two different perceptions on what constitutes "activity" because from where I'm standing, in my entire nearly 3 years on staff, Jason has never really been that active. The admin logs will prove it. People aren't stupid. They know when someone is still on staff when they see their comments on battles or when they view "Forum Leaders." Mods complain and feel a certain way when they don't feel like everyone is holding their own weight and they are doing everything. I experienced the same feeling when I was a mod. "Half the mods are inactive" is one of the common complaints people make about the site. If it's not about them being a mod or having mod powers, then you should do what I did when RULE stepped down the first time , because I felt the same way about him having a seat at the table at the time, and simply edit their access mask to be able to view the staff forums. As far as having a few extra hands on deck, like I said before, there will always be people willing to join staff and help out. We never need to keep inactive mods around for fear of that.

I just hadn't gotten to Just C or any of the others yet. I think there does need to be a certain level of favortism towards people who have contributed the most to this site and given the most of their time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Favortism isn't always bad. As far as my position goes it's not that hard to understand. All you have to do is flip their displayed user group around. It takes 1/10th the time it took me to create the usergroup I did and start adding people to it. That's what I was advocating. I've yet to even see anyone define what "inactivity" leads to being demodded.Jay was on vacation and getting his degree and shit but you couldn't just make his display usergroup Exclusive? Why? Why is that such a huge deal? You may have been staff and not seen him be "active" a whole lot in three years but I was staff for seven years and those four years before and any of the old heads will tell you he was and still is one of the most fair and respected moderators on this site. Modding isn't just about deleting votes and changing vote power and shit either. What's Jason's vote count? How many discussions has he been involved in?

Active mods don't generate activity. Active userbases do. The purpose of moderators is to keep that activity within the rules so that everyone has a fair experience with the site. The reason there's so little for the mods to do is because the userbase is shrinking away. Sure, they can generate stuff for themselves to do but to what extent? How many tournaments can they do? At what point do we say "Okay, something else needs to be done?" We get endless promises and ideas but nothing is ever done. At this rate, when I get to the day that marks ten years on this site, if it's still here, I feel like we're going to be in the same place. It's been like this for years now.

Let's be real, you're pissed because I went behind you and changed something. Something that wasn't even that major. You're pulling a power play because I made an executive decision that, as a senior staff member, I had every right to make. De-Staffing me w/o saying anything first or messaging me or anything like that is a snake ass move. @Pugz, I'm sorry this is how this went. X never would have let some shit like this go though. He trusted me and new I could make the right calls and gave me the latitude to make them. I'm not even angry man. I'm just disappointed you couldn't show me the same respect and trust he did.

[Mindless]

Originally Posted by Pugz

I agree with noble.. we do have a revolving door policy in place for mods that can contribute and want to commit later.. but if the work is slacking then we need to make moves to correct it.. i said it before.. if you cant commit the time then really you should step down and let some new blood step in .

And that's fine but why are we demodding people w/o saying anything to them at all first? I wasn't necessarily arguing against demodding them as much demodding them and not letting them be here in the board because guys like Jason and Just C have been around for a long time and done a whole lot for this site so they deserve to be in this board regardless of their activity as a staff member.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

Jason was re-added because he's been around so long but Just C and Phil Banks weren't. Why, because they haven't been around as long? How can we defend against charges of favoritism if both Jason and one of the other current mods go inactive and we demod the other mod but not Jason? Perhaps your position is we don't demod anyone because "activity isn't exactly a flurry around here." Active mods are exactly what's helping to generate the little activity that's still left through organizing tournaments/forum games etc!! If there's no work to do, we as staff should MAKE WORK for ourselves to do. Perhaps we have two different perceptions on what constitutes "activity" because from where I'm standing, in my entire nearly 3 years on staff, Jason has never really been that active. The admin logs will prove it. People aren't stupid. They know when someone is still on staff when they see their comments on battles or when they view "Forum Leaders." Mods complain and feel a certain way when they don't feel like everyone is holding their own weight and they are doing everything. I experienced the same feeling when I was a mod. "Half the mods are inactive" is one of the common complaints people make about the site. If it's not about them being a mod or having mod powers, then you should do what I did when RULE stepped down the first time , because I felt the same way about him having a seat at the table at the time, and simply edit their access mask to be able to view the staff forums. As far as having a few extra hands on deck, like I said before, there will always be people willing to join staff and help out. We never need to keep inactive mods around for fear of that.

I just hadn't gotten to Just C or any of the others yet. I think there does need to be a certain level of favortism towards people who have contributed the most to this site and given the most of their time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Favortism isn't always bad. As far as my position goes it's not that hard to understand. All you have to do is flip their displayed user group around. It takes 1/10th the time it took me to create the usergroup I did and start adding people to it. That's what I was advocating. I've yet to even see anyone define what "inactivity" leads to being demodded.Jay was on vacation and getting his degree and shit but you couldn't just make his display usergroup Exclusive? Why? Why is that such a huge deal? You may have been staff and not seen him be "active" a whole lot in three years but I was staff for seven years and those four years before and any of the old heads will tell you he was and still is one of the most fair and respected moderators on this site. Modding isn't just about deleting votes and changing vote power and shit either. What's Jason's vote count? How many discussions has he been involved in?

Active mods don't generate activity. Active userbases do. The purpose of moderators is to keep that activity within the rules so that everyone has a fair experience with the site. The reason there's so little for the mods to do is because the userbase is shrinking away. Sure, they can generate stuff for themselves to do but to what extent? How many tournaments can they do? At what point do we say "Okay, something else needs to be done?" We get endless promises and ideas but nothing is ever done. At this rate, when I get to the day that marks ten years on this site, if it's still here, I feel like we're going to be in the same place. It's been like this for years now.

Let's be real, you're pissed because I went behind you and changed something. Something that wasn't even that major. You're pulling a power play because I made an executive decision that, as a senior staff member, I had every right to make. De-Staffing me w/o saying anything first or messaging me or anything like that is a snake ass move. @Pugz, I'm sorry this is how this went. X never would have let some shit like this go though. He trusted me and new I could make the right calls and gave me the latitude to make them. I'm not even angry man. I'm just disappointed you couldn't show me the same respect and trust he did.

[Babylon]

Awh lord.

[Babylon]

Awh lord.

[Mindless]

If any of the shit I said is wrong somebody let me know. Do @Jason, @Just C, @RULE and others not deserve a chance to give their opinions on policy as it's being made after all the contributions that they've made?

[Mindless]

If any of the shit I said is wrong somebody let me know. Do @Jason, @Just C, @RULE and others not deserve a chance to give their opinions on policy as it's being made after all the contributions that they've made?

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Mindless

And that's fine but why are we demodding people w/o saying anything to them at all first? I wasn't necessarily arguing against demodding them as much demodding them and not letting them be here in the board because guys like Jason and Just C have been around for a long time and done a whole lot for this site so they deserve to be in this board regardless of their activity as a staff member.



I just hadn't gotten to Just C or any of the others yet. I think there does need to be a certain level of favortism towards people who have contributed the most to this site and given the most of their time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Favortism isn't always bad. As far as my position goes it's not that hard to understand. All you have to do is flip their displayed user group around. It takes 1/10th the time it took me to create the usergroup I did and start adding people to it. That's what I was advocating. I've yet to even see anyone define what "inactivity" leads to being demodded.Jay was on vacation and getting his degree and shit but you couldn't just make his display usergroup Exclusive? Why? Why is that such a huge deal? You may have been staff and not seen him be "active" a whole lot in three years but I was staff for seven years and those four years before and any of the old heads will tell you he was and still is one of the most fair and respected moderators on this site. Modding isn't just about deleting votes and changing vote power and shit either. What's Jason's vote count? How many discussions has he been involved in?

Active mods don't generate activity. Active userbases do. The purpose of moderators is to keep that activity within the rules so that everyone has a fair experience with the site. The reason there's so little for the mods to do is because the userbase is shrinking away. Sure, they can generate stuff for themselves to do but to what extent? How many tournaments can they do? At what point do we say "Okay, something else needs to be done?" We get endless promises and ideas but nothing is ever done. At this rate, when I get to the day that marks ten years on this site, if it's still here, I feel like we're going to be in the same place. It's been like this for years now.

Let's be real, you're pissed because I went behind you and changed something. Something that wasn't even that major. You're pulling a power play because I made an executive decision that, as a senior staff member, I had every right to make. De-Staffing me w/o saying anything first or messaging me or anything like that is a snake ass move. @Pugz, I'm sorry this is how this went. X never would have let some shit like this go though. He trusted me and new I could make the right calls and gave me the latitude to make them. I'm not even angry man. I'm just disappointed you couldn't show me the same respect and trust he did.

There's a lot wrong with being perceived as showing favoritism, especially when it's based on a misconception of who's active and who's not. I feel like your perception is based on how things were years ago when Jason and Just C probably were the most active mods, and you seem to be assuming that since they've been here all this time, they must have been contributing at the same rate as other mods. No offence but I feel like I'm more in-tune with who's active and who needs to be demodded at the present moment since I'm on the site everyday monitoring mod activities and you're hardly active yourself. I'll admit I honestly didn't know Jason was on vacation. All I know is I had been back as admin for a whole month and a half and had only seen him online twice. He hadn't participated in any staff discussions and he doesn't have any activity registered in the admin logs. But in my almost 3 years working with him, he was never really that active even when he wasn't on vacation. For much of that time, he, like yourself, would log in as Invisible. Regular members can't see that you're online and available for them to hit you up when you're Invisible. That's basically saying "I don't want to be bothered" so you guys are hard pressed to say "there's not much to do" when you don't even take the first step of making yourself available to members at all times. I had sent Jason, Just C and Phil Banks PM's saying they are welcome back whenever they're ready to be active again. Them being demodded doesn't mean they can never come back, but I had already stated my reasons for not keeping them (or anyone else) as mods while they're inactive. I'll just paste it here since this is now a public discussion.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

It actually damages both the morale of some of the current staff members as well as the perception of staff in general in the eyes of the public when we have members of staff who are perceived as inactive. If we can't demod certain people because "they've been around so long" then there's no point in ever demodding anybody for inactivity. It would simply look like favoritism.

You're right about modding not being just about deleting votes and changing vote power and whatever else is registered in the admin logs. For the record, my vote count exceeds both yours and Jason's and I haven't been here for 7 years. So does my forum actions. You're also right about an active userbase being the primary generator of activity, but I feel staff should play a major role in that. Part of what makes RULE such an esteemed staff member is he was always busy creating and running new tourneys for the members like Illmania, LBT, etc. When was the last time Jason ran a tournament on LetsBeef? At this particular junction, ESPECIALLY because the site activity is low, we don't need any background mods. We need mods that will be front and center helping to keep the activity going. As far as your point about us getting promises that haven't been fulfilled, that doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and give up. Honestly, I feel like you've given up on LB from being frustrated with the lack of development. I know you had asked for access which you never received and I agree they should give someone more access who's always here. My whole time on staff has been practically about finding ways around these things rather than throwing my hands up and giving up like y'all. People complained that the crew battles weren't working? I assigned someone to run crew battles through the forum. It's not the coding fix that we really need, but it's still something and a way for us to continue crew battles regardless. No one had mod access in the original chatroom on the side drop down menu? I made a new chatroom with Teek and embedded it in the forums. It would still be better if we simply change what's embedded in the side drop down menu but no one has access right now. That doesn't mean we can't have a chatroom. The audio tournament players weren''t working? I suggested we hold the audio tourney in the regular arena which is still working rather than NOT have a tourney at all this time cause the brackets aren't working. That's the type of approach I think all staff members should have. Mods like @ILLoKWENT running the FVC and actively participating in tournaments and giving members feedback, mods like @2FUEL who votes on damn near every battle people ask him to vote on and actively checks for multiple account cheaters and handles awards, @X-Calibur and @Mayneak even though they just recently joined/re-joined are doing a lot as well. These are the type of mods we need right now. If you simply commit to voting on FVC battles alone, you would never say there's nothing to do. We don't need staff members who've thrown their hands up out of frustration. We need staff members who are currently doing their best regardless of the low activity/lack of site fixes.

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Mindless

And that's fine but why are we demodding people w/o saying anything to them at all first? I wasn't necessarily arguing against demodding them as much demodding them and not letting them be here in the board because guys like Jason and Just C have been around for a long time and done a whole lot for this site so they deserve to be in this board regardless of their activity as a staff member.



I just hadn't gotten to Just C or any of the others yet. I think there does need to be a certain level of favortism towards people who have contributed the most to this site and given the most of their time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Favortism isn't always bad. As far as my position goes it's not that hard to understand. All you have to do is flip their displayed user group around. It takes 1/10th the time it took me to create the usergroup I did and start adding people to it. That's what I was advocating. I've yet to even see anyone define what "inactivity" leads to being demodded.Jay was on vacation and getting his degree and shit but you couldn't just make his display usergroup Exclusive? Why? Why is that such a huge deal? You may have been staff and not seen him be "active" a whole lot in three years but I was staff for seven years and those four years before and any of the old heads will tell you he was and still is one of the most fair and respected moderators on this site. Modding isn't just about deleting votes and changing vote power and shit either. What's Jason's vote count? How many discussions has he been involved in?

Active mods don't generate activity. Active userbases do. The purpose of moderators is to keep that activity within the rules so that everyone has a fair experience with the site. The reason there's so little for the mods to do is because the userbase is shrinking away. Sure, they can generate stuff for themselves to do but to what extent? How many tournaments can they do? At what point do we say "Okay, something else needs to be done?" We get endless promises and ideas but nothing is ever done. At this rate, when I get to the day that marks ten years on this site, if it's still here, I feel like we're going to be in the same place. It's been like this for years now.

Let's be real, you're pissed because I went behind you and changed something. Something that wasn't even that major. You're pulling a power play because I made an executive decision that, as a senior staff member, I had every right to make. De-Staffing me w/o saying anything first or messaging me or anything like that is a snake ass move. @Pugz, I'm sorry this is how this went. X never would have let some shit like this go though. He trusted me and new I could make the right calls and gave me the latitude to make them. I'm not even angry man. I'm just disappointed you couldn't show me the same respect and trust he did.

There's a lot wrong with being perceived as showing favoritism, especially when it's based on a misconception of who's active and who's not. I feel like your perception is based on how things were years ago when Jason and Just C probably were the most active mods, and you seem to be assuming that since they've been here all this time, they must have been contributing at the same rate as other mods. No offence but I feel like I'm more in-tune with who's active and who needs to be demodded at the present moment since I'm on the site everyday monitoring mod activities and you're hardly active yourself. I'll admit I honestly didn't know Jason was on vacation. All I know is I had been back as admin for a whole month and a half and had only seen him online twice. He hadn't participated in any staff discussions and he doesn't have any activity registered in the admin logs. But in my almost 3 years working with him, he was never really that active even when he wasn't on vacation. For much of that time, he, like yourself, would log in as Invisible. Regular members can't see that you're online and available for them to hit you up when you're Invisible. That's basically saying "I don't want to be bothered" so you guys are hard pressed to say "there's not much to do" when you don't even take the first step of making yourself available to members at all times. I had sent Jason, Just C and Phil Banks PM's saying they are welcome back whenever they're ready to be active again. Them being demodded doesn't mean they can never come back, but I had already stated my reasons for not keeping them (or anyone else) as mods while they're inactive. I'll just paste it here since this is now a public discussion.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

It actually damages both the morale of some of the current staff members as well as the perception of staff in general in the eyes of the public when we have members of staff who are perceived as inactive. If we can't demod certain people because "they've been around so long" then there's no point in ever demodding anybody for inactivity. It would simply look like favoritism.

You're right about modding not being just about deleting votes and changing vote power and whatever else is registered in the admin logs. For the record, my vote count exceeds both yours and Jason's and I haven't been here for 7 years. So does my forum actions. You're also right about an active userbase being the primary generator of activity, but I feel staff should play a major role in that. Part of what makes RULE such an esteemed staff member is he was always busy creating and running new tourneys for the members like Illmania, LBT, etc. When was the last time Jason ran a tournament on LetsBeef? At this particular junction, ESPECIALLY because the site activity is low, we don't need any background mods. We need mods that will be front and center helping to keep the activity going. As far as your point about us getting promises that haven't been fulfilled, that doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and give up. Honestly, I feel like you've given up on LB from being frustrated with the lack of development. I know you had asked for access which you never received and I agree they should give someone more access who's always here. My whole time on staff has been practically about finding ways around these things rather than throwing my hands up and giving up like y'all. People complained that the crew battles weren't working? I assigned someone to run crew battles through the forum. It's not the coding fix that we really need, but it's still something and a way for us to continue crew battles regardless. No one had mod access in the original chatroom on the side drop down menu? I made a new chatroom with Teek and embedded it in the forums. It would still be better if we simply change what's embedded in the side drop down menu but no one has access right now. That doesn't mean we can't have a chatroom. The audio tournament players weren''t working? I suggested we hold the audio tourney in the regular arena which is still working rather than NOT have a tourney at all this time cause the brackets aren't working. That's the type of approach I think all staff members should have. Mods like @ILLoKWENT running the FVC and actively participating in tournaments and giving members feedback, mods like @2FUEL who votes on damn near every battle people ask him to vote on and actively checks for multiple account cheaters and handles awards, @X-Calibur and @Mayneak even though they just recently joined/re-joined are doing a lot as well. These are the type of mods we need right now. If you simply commit to voting on FVC battles alone, you would never say there's nothing to do. We don't need staff members who've thrown their hands up out of frustration. We need staff members who are currently doing their best regardless of the low activity/lack of site fixes.

[J u s T C]

The whole demodding de admining thing without consulting/discussing needs to stop. Not even bothered about myself because I wasn't exactly active.

But I agree with Mindless. it's about more than the stupid admin log. No offence.

People like Jason Should have had staff lounge access atleast in an advisory role. ( I think thats what mindless tried to do?)

People disagree ALL the time. You need to learn how to discuss and compromise and cut the " NAAAAH NAAAAH NAAAAH FINGERS IN MY EARS *DEADMIN* crap.

Too much black and white, not enough grey.

Cool with all the staff including Noble but if thats how it went down and Mindless never been the sneaky type to just make up shit, you wrong for that.

[J u s T C]

The whole demodding de admining thing without consulting/discussing needs to stop. Not even bothered about myself because I wasn't exactly active.

But I agree with Mindless. it's about more than the stupid admin log. No offence.

People like Jason Should have had staff lounge access atleast in an advisory role. ( I think thats what mindless tried to do?)

People disagree ALL the time. You need to learn how to discuss and compromise and cut the " NAAAAH NAAAAH NAAAAH FINGERS IN MY EARS *DEADMIN* crap.

Too much black and white, not enough grey.

Cool with all the staff including Noble but if thats how it went down and Mindless never been the sneaky type to just make up shit, you wrong for that.

[Mindless]

Originally Posted by NOBLE

There's a lot wrong with being perceived as showing favoritism, especially when it's based on a misconception of who's active and who's not.

Except that's not what it was based on. It was based on the perception of contribution and despite whatever recent level of activity he might have had Jason contributed a lot to this site. That goes for a lot of others. Not just him and Just C. Anyone who's put in that level of work should have the opportunity to have their voice heard at the policy discussion table. Even if they aren't active staff. That was my point the whole time. You seem to be implying that those who contributed the most should be treated the same as those contributed very little or nothing at all because it "might look bad." I seriously doubt you'd find anyone around here that would tell you that guys that gave up so much of their free time to sit around her moderating battles and creating things for the site shouldn't just get to see the mod board or something because it wouldn't be fair or w/e.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I feel like your perception is based on how things were years ago when Jason and Just C probably were the most active mods, and you seem to be assuming that since they've been here all this time, they must have been contributing at the same rate as other mods.

My perception is based on how things are. Any staff member who made major contributions to this site in time and effort deserves to have their voice heard. I feel like I'm repeating myself, and it's because I am. You've got this whole "What have you done for me lately" thing going on and I'm saying it doesn't matter when you did it. I just want to show appreciation for doing it. It's not all that difficult a concept man.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

No offence but I feel like I'm more in-tune with who's active and who needs to be demodded at the present moment since I'm on the site everyday monitoring mod activities and you're hardly active yourself. I'll admit I honestly didn't know Jason was on vacation. All I know is I had been back as admin for a whole month and a half and had only seen him online twice. He hadn't participated in any staff discussions and he doesn't have any activity registered in the admin logs. But in my almost 3 years working with him, he was never really that active even when he wasn't on vacation.

And again, I say why not just flip his user groups around? That's the thing you don't seem to understand. You seem to think I was on some crazy power trip doing shit behind your back or something but I've explained to you three or four times now that it was about letting those guys see the board w/o having to go through all the trouble of creating a new user group and editing board permissions. It wasn't a power play you silly bastard. It was efficiency. Doing the same amount of work in as few clicks as possible. It's not like these aren't people we haven't already trusted with this power so there's no reason to believe that it isn't a good idea to just flip around some usergroups until they decide they want to be active again. There really was no reason to create an entirely new usergroup, create a new set of perms for that group and then apply a new set of perms to the staff board for that group. You see what I'm saying? I did in like, three clicks what would have been at least ten minutes of shit otherwise that was basically unnecessary to do when the usergroup that was needed to perform the same action was already there.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

For much of that time, he, like yourself, would log in as Invisible. Regular members can't see that you're online and available for them to hit you up when you're Invisible.

I honestly forgot I even had that turned on. Until today I hadn't been in my user options CP for probably two or three years I bet. It's not something I do very often at all. I can't even remember what my previous avatar was.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

That's basically saying "I don't want to be bothered" so you guys are hard pressed to say "there's not much to do" when you don't even take the first step of making yourself available to members at all times.

Or it's saying, "I don't want you to see me doing shit in the background and watching what you're doing because then you won't do it." when there actually is a lot of activity going on. Sometimes it's better to run through the backend when you're checking for shady shit. Not to mention that posting in the boards kind of gives away when I'm online anyhow.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I had sent Jason, Just C and Phil Banks PM's saying they are welcome back whenever they're ready to be active again. Them being demodded doesn't mean they can never come back, but I had already stated my reasons for not keeping them (or anyone else) as mods while they're inactive.

Please refer to above question about why not just switch their display groups around and actually answer that one this time maybe.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I'll just paste it here since this is now a public discussion.

Which it wouldn't be if you hadn't decided to remove my admin powers and lock me out of the staff forum instead of just continuing to have the discussion with me there. It's that simple really. We could be having this whole discussion there in that board right now. And it's especially strange after I went ahead and ran with your idea creating the new usergroup and adding people to it and then even asking the other staff members in the thread for suggestions on people to add to it.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

You're right about modding not being just about deleting votes and changing vote power and whatever else is registered in the admin logs. For the record, my vote count exceeds both yours and Jason's and I haven't been here for 7 years. So does my forum actions.

And that makes you better somehow? I don't think so. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what my situation is and has been over the past eight years or so and a number of them understand that I'm as active as I possibly can be. Given that it is what it is I think I've done pretty well tbqh. Not to mention the amount of shit I was doing before my bouts of "inactivity."

Originally Posted by NOBLE

You're also right about an active userbase being the primary generator of activity, but I feel staff should play a major role in that.

FINALLY! We agree on something.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

Part of what makes RULE such an esteemed staff member is he was always busy creating and running new tourneys for the members like Illmania, LBT, etc.

There's a lot more to it than that. In fact, I would say the tourneys were the least of the reasons RULE is so respected.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

When was the last time Jason ran a tournament on LetsBeef? At this particular junction, ESPECIALLY because the site activity is low, we don't need any background mods. We need mods that will be front and center helping to keep the activity going.

To continue having conversations about having too many tourneys and user titles that we had five years ago? How many times do we have to repeat the same things over again? Some things work. Some things don't. We need to be throwing out shit that is doing nothing instead of continuing to do the same shit over and over and wondering why we end up in the same place.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

As far as your point about us getting promises that haven't been fulfilled, that doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and give up. Honestly, I feel like you've given up on LB from being frustrated with the lack of development.

Could you blame me if I had? I respect the hell out of your optimism buddy but optimism will only get you so far. Shit needs to be fixed and set back on course or this mother fucker is gone. I dont' want that. I've put a lot of my time and self into this site and half the time it seems like I was the only one who gave a shit.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I know you had asked for access which you never received and I agree they should give someone more access who's always here.

Even with the access necessary there are still so many things that I can't do that need to be done by the site owners. They're going to have to buckle down and believe in their investment or it's going to take a big fat shit right in front of them. To be honest those things I wanted to do would have been nothing more than band-aids on a sucking chest wound.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

My whole time on staff has been practically about finding ways around these things rather than throwing my hands up and giving up like y'all. People complained that the crew battles weren't working? I assigned someone to run crew battles through the forum. It's not the coding fix that we really need, but it's still something and a way for us to continue crew battles regardless. No one had mod access in the original chatroom on the side drop down menu? I made a new chatroom with Teek and embedded it in the forums. It would still be better if we simply change what's embedded in the side drop down menu but no one has access right now. That doesn't mean we can't have a chatroom. The audio tournament players weren''t working? I suggested we hold the audio tourney in the regular arena which is still working rather than NOT have a tourney at all this time cause the brackets aren't working.

And those are exactly the type of work-arounds we were doing before you were even a staff member. Sometimes the users would even do the shit all on their own. After a while though people are going to get tired of that sort of thing and they're just going to want things to work the way they are supposed to instead of jerry-rigging up whatever fix we can manage.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

That's the type of approach I think all staff members should have. Mods like @ILLoKWENT running the FVC and actively participating in tournaments and giving members feedback, mods like @2FUEL who votes on damn near every battle people ask him to vote on and actively checks for multiple account cheaters and handles awards, @X-Calibur and @Mayneak even though they just recently joined/re-joined are doing a lot as well. These are the type of mods we need right now.

You're right. We do need good mods and it's not just right now it's all the time. My point has been this whole time though that any staff member who's made lasting contributions to the site should at least be able to see the mod board and jump right back to modding (Barring some sort of shady shit.) at any point. That's why I'm so confused about why you're making this into me doing some crazy shit. We basically fucking agree and are saying the same shit but because I changed a usergroup around it's turned into this huge fucking thing.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

If you simply commit to voting on FVC battles alone, you would never say there's nothing to do. We don't need staff members who've thrown their hands up out of frustration. We need staff members who are currently doing their best regardless of the low activity/lack of site fixes.

Calling out bullshit is not the same thing as throwing my hands up and quitting. I have not ever, and would not have ever, quit. I've always read and made the effort to try and answer every single PM and thread mention or whatever.

Oh, and that FVC thing you're fond of that gets all the votes going. I created that. Probably before you were even a basic member. I'm not rubbing it in your face. I'm just saying, you're pushing this concept of me having quit and never accomplished or contributed anything but that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Mindless]

Originally Posted by NOBLE

There's a lot wrong with being perceived as showing favoritism, especially when it's based on a misconception of who's active and who's not.

Except that's not what it was based on. It was based on the perception of contribution and despite whatever recent level of activity he might have had Jason contributed a lot to this site. That goes for a lot of others. Not just him and Just C. Anyone who's put in that level of work should have the opportunity to have their voice heard at the policy discussion table. Even if they aren't active staff. That was my point the whole time. You seem to be implying that those who contributed the most should be treated the same as those contributed very little or nothing at all because it "might look bad." I seriously doubt you'd find anyone around here that would tell you that guys that gave up so much of their free time to sit around her moderating battles and creating things for the site shouldn't just get to see the mod board or something because it wouldn't be fair or w/e.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I feel like your perception is based on how things were years ago when Jason and Just C probably were the most active mods, and you seem to be assuming that since they've been here all this time, they must have been contributing at the same rate as other mods.

My perception is based on how things are. Any staff member who made major contributions to this site in time and effort deserves to have their voice heard. I feel like I'm repeating myself, and it's because I am. You've got this whole "What have you done for me lately" thing going on and I'm saying it doesn't matter when you did it. I just want to show appreciation for doing it. It's not all that difficult a concept man.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

No offence but I feel like I'm more in-tune with who's active and who needs to be demodded at the present moment since I'm on the site everyday monitoring mod activities and you're hardly active yourself. I'll admit I honestly didn't know Jason was on vacation. All I know is I had been back as admin for a whole month and a half and had only seen him online twice. He hadn't participated in any staff discussions and he doesn't have any activity registered in the admin logs. But in my almost 3 years working with him, he was never really that active even when he wasn't on vacation.

And again, I say why not just flip his user groups around? That's the thing you don't seem to understand. You seem to think I was on some crazy power trip doing shit behind your back or something but I've explained to you three or four times now that it was about letting those guys see the board w/o having to go through all the trouble of creating a new user group and editing board permissions. It wasn't a power play you silly bastard. It was efficiency. Doing the same amount of work in as few clicks as possible. It's not like these aren't people we haven't already trusted with this power so there's no reason to believe that it isn't a good idea to just flip around some usergroups until they decide they want to be active again. There really was no reason to create an entirely new usergroup, create a new set of perms for that group and then apply a new set of perms to the staff board for that group. You see what I'm saying? I did in like, three clicks what would have been at least ten minutes of shit otherwise that was basically unnecessary to do when the usergroup that was needed to perform the same action was already there.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

For much of that time, he, like yourself, would log in as Invisible. Regular members can't see that you're online and available for them to hit you up when you're Invisible.

I honestly forgot I even had that turned on. Until today I hadn't been in my user options CP for probably two or three years I bet. It's not something I do very often at all. I can't even remember what my previous avatar was.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

That's basically saying "I don't want to be bothered" so you guys are hard pressed to say "there's not much to do" when you don't even take the first step of making yourself available to members at all times.

Or it's saying, "I don't want you to see me doing shit in the background and watching what you're doing because then you won't do it." when there actually is a lot of activity going on. Sometimes it's better to run through the backend when you're checking for shady shit. Not to mention that posting in the boards kind of gives away when I'm online anyhow.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I had sent Jason, Just C and Phil Banks PM's saying they are welcome back whenever they're ready to be active again. Them being demodded doesn't mean they can never come back, but I had already stated my reasons for not keeping them (or anyone else) as mods while they're inactive.

Please refer to above question about why not just switch their display groups around and actually answer that one this time maybe.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I'll just paste it here since this is now a public discussion.

Which it wouldn't be if you hadn't decided to remove my admin powers and lock me out of the staff forum instead of just continuing to have the discussion with me there. It's that simple really. We could be having this whole discussion there in that board right now. And it's especially strange after I went ahead and ran with your idea creating the new usergroup and adding people to it and then even asking the other staff members in the thread for suggestions on people to add to it.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

You're right about modding not being just about deleting votes and changing vote power and whatever else is registered in the admin logs. For the record, my vote count exceeds both yours and Jason's and I haven't been here for 7 years. So does my forum actions.

And that makes you better somehow? I don't think so. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what my situation is and has been over the past eight years or so and a number of them understand that I'm as active as I possibly can be. Given that it is what it is I think I've done pretty well tbqh. Not to mention the amount of shit I was doing before my bouts of "inactivity."

Originally Posted by NOBLE

You're also right about an active userbase being the primary generator of activity, but I feel staff should play a major role in that.

FINALLY! We agree on something.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

Part of what makes RULE such an esteemed staff member is he was always busy creating and running new tourneys for the members like Illmania, LBT, etc.

There's a lot more to it than that. In fact, I would say the tourneys were the least of the reasons RULE is so respected.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

When was the last time Jason ran a tournament on LetsBeef? At this particular junction, ESPECIALLY because the site activity is low, we don't need any background mods. We need mods that will be front and center helping to keep the activity going.

To continue having conversations about having too many tourneys and user titles that we had five years ago? How many times do we have to repeat the same things over again? Some things work. Some things don't. We need to be throwing out shit that is doing nothing instead of continuing to do the same shit over and over and wondering why we end up in the same place.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

As far as your point about us getting promises that haven't been fulfilled, that doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and give up. Honestly, I feel like you've given up on LB from being frustrated with the lack of development.

Could you blame me if I had? I respect the hell out of your optimism buddy but optimism will only get you so far. Shit needs to be fixed and set back on course or this mother fucker is gone. I dont' want that. I've put a lot of my time and self into this site and half the time it seems like I was the only one who gave a shit.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

I know you had asked for access which you never received and I agree they should give someone more access who's always here.

Even with the access necessary there are still so many things that I can't do that need to be done by the site owners. They're going to have to buckle down and believe in their investment or it's going to take a big fat shit right in front of them. To be honest those things I wanted to do would have been nothing more than band-aids on a sucking chest wound.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

My whole time on staff has been practically about finding ways around these things rather than throwing my hands up and giving up like y'all. People complained that the crew battles weren't working? I assigned someone to run crew battles through the forum. It's not the coding fix that we really need, but it's still something and a way for us to continue crew battles regardless. No one had mod access in the original chatroom on the side drop down menu? I made a new chatroom with Teek and embedded it in the forums. It would still be better if we simply change what's embedded in the side drop down menu but no one has access right now. That doesn't mean we can't have a chatroom. The audio tournament players weren''t working? I suggested we hold the audio tourney in the regular arena which is still working rather than NOT have a tourney at all this time cause the brackets aren't working.

And those are exactly the type of work-arounds we were doing before you were even a staff member. Sometimes the users would even do the shit all on their own. After a while though people are going to get tired of that sort of thing and they're just going to want things to work the way they are supposed to instead of jerry-rigging up whatever fix we can manage.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

That's the type of approach I think all staff members should have. Mods like @ILLoKWENT running the FVC and actively participating in tournaments and giving members feedback, mods like @2FUEL who votes on damn near every battle people ask him to vote on and actively checks for multiple account cheaters and handles awards, @X-Calibur and @Mayneak even though they just recently joined/re-joined are doing a lot as well. These are the type of mods we need right now.

You're right. We do need good mods and it's not just right now it's all the time. My point has been this whole time though that any staff member who's made lasting contributions to the site should at least be able to see the mod board and jump right back to modding (Barring some sort of shady shit.) at any point. That's why I'm so confused about why you're making this into me doing some crazy shit. We basically fucking agree and are saying the same shit but because I changed a usergroup around it's turned into this huge fucking thing.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

If you simply commit to voting on FVC battles alone, you would never say there's nothing to do. We don't need staff members who've thrown their hands up out of frustration. We need staff members who are currently doing their best regardless of the low activity/lack of site fixes.

Calling out bullshit is not the same thing as throwing my hands up and quitting. I have not ever, and would not have ever, quit. I've always read and made the effort to try and answer every single PM and thread mention or whatever.

Oh, and that FVC thing you're fond of that gets all the votes going. I created that. Probably before you were even a basic member. I'm not rubbing it in your face. I'm just saying, you're pushing this concept of me having quit and never accomplished or contributed anything but that couldn't be further from the truth.

[J u s T C]

Also. Correct. Rule was doing this that and the other. He tried. But just going off illmania it was riddled with no shows. The activity isn't there. You can run all the tourneys you want but when you're met with so much resistance I.E bags of no shows. There are issues elsewhere.

Tourneys don't increase activity. They just bring a little buzz till it's time to put up. Advertising and bringing in members boosts activity.

Only reason I stopped running tourneys was because they were bags of shit no shows.

"OOOOOOOH THE SITES DEAD" *RUNS TOURNEY* "OOOOOH THE SITES DEAD" guy no shows.

[J u s T C]

Also. Correct. Rule was doing this that and the other. He tried. But just going off illmania it was riddled with no shows. The activity isn't there. You can run all the tourneys you want but when you're met with so much resistance I.E bags of no shows. There are issues elsewhere.

Tourneys don't increase activity. They just bring a little buzz till it's time to put up. Advertising and bringing in members boosts activity.

Only reason I stopped running tourneys was because they were bags of shit no shows.

"OOOOOOOH THE SITES DEAD" *RUNS TOURNEY* "OOOOOH THE SITES DEAD" guy no shows.

[Mindless]

I wish I could get into the people who have real say in what goes on with this site that the only thing that's going to cure its ills is to actually put the time and money into it that's necessary. It's not even like the market for battling is gone away. It's still there. We've just lost it and our way here.

[Mindless]

I wish I could get into the people who have real say in what goes on with this site that the only thing that's going to cure its ills is to actually put the time and money into it that's necessary. It's not even like the market for battling is gone away. It's still there. We've just lost it and our way here.

[J u s T C]

In response to the "throwing your hands up and giving up"

It's very easy to say that because it helps you from addressing the real issue.

The fact is people woke up.

There's only so many times I'm going to "say this" or "do that" before I realise it's a pointless fruitless exercise in a waste of my own time.

But instead of looking at it and asking yourself. "Why is so and so" not "doing such and such" anymore. Why has he decided to fall back and take a back seat.

You bin them and bring in naive new blood.

Well it will only be a matter of time before they reach the same point and hit a brick wall (if they even give enough of a shit about this place to even reach that point in the first place)

You're putting a plaster on a rifle wound.

[J u s T C]

In response to the "throwing your hands up and giving up"

It's very easy to say that because it helps you from addressing the real issue.

The fact is people woke up.

There's only so many times I'm going to "say this" or "do that" before I realise it's a pointless fruitless exercise in a waste of my own time.

But instead of looking at it and asking yourself. "Why is so and so" not "doing such and such" anymore. Why has he decided to fall back and take a back seat.

You bin them and bring in naive new blood.

Well it will only be a matter of time before they reach the same point and hit a brick wall (if they even give enough of a shit about this place to even reach that point in the first place)

You're putting a plaster on a rifle wound.

[Student]

I Believe That "Open Door Policy" Doesn't Extend To Everyone Even Current Patriarchs (Talking About EtH And Myself).

Also, I Would Contribute To This Thread But Honestly I Had Almost This Same Discussion With NOBLE A Few Days Ago.

[Student]

I Believe That "Open Door Policy" Doesn't Extend To Everyone Even Current Patriarchs (Talking About EtH And Myself).

Also, I Would Contribute To This Thread But Honestly I Had Almost This Same Discussion With NOBLE A Few Days Ago.