FUCK THE POLICE

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Jason

You probably have a point.
Where there is smoke there is fire, and if this many people are claiming that police are being racist towards the black community there is probably an element of truth to it.
I think the problem lies in the fact that people are latching on to the wrong cases to make this point.
If you watch the video carefully you'll see that there is literally only one second where the cop has him in the chokehold and he is saying he cannot breathe. After Garner is brought to the ground the other cops say "hes down" and the choke is released. His airway was not being restricted the majority of the time the police had him on the ground and he said he couldnt breathe. There is no way the police would have been able to foresee that he would have an asthma attack that would restrict his airways. There was obviously no malicious intent whatsoever, his death was tragic but an obvious accident.
As a completely unbiased educated person it seems blatantly obvious that this cop should not be charged. Sure he should be disciplined that he used an illegal choke but theres no way he could have anticipated that the man would die as a result .. how is it fair to hold him accountable for murder for a completely freak accident?
There is also the fact that the leader of the team that took Garner down was a black woman.
I have yet to see a high profile case video where someone is co-operating completely and entirely and they still somehow end up dead. as far as i have seen there has always been a valid reason at least to some extent why things happened the way they did. in this case Garner started retaliating when the cops went to cuff him and unfortunately it cost him his life. maybe if he didnt resist things would have turned out differently.. who knows. the point is, never give the police a reason to have to get aggressive with you. and thats not a "black person" thing.. that goes for everyone and anyone. I got pulled over a while ago and I rolled my window down and left both hands on the outside of my car while the cop approached my car. 99% of the time being courteous and non-threatening will get you out of escalating a situation with the police. most of the time people don't behave courteous and non-threatning. I saw a video the other day of an black ex new york detective telling people not to answer the cops when they ask them simple questions and to stand there with your arms folded or to walk away. he made it sound like every single cop is out to get black people and the best course of action is to act like an arrogant douche and not provide simple information and be on your way. people are taking these cases and using them as a tool to poison everyone against law enforcement. i dont see what benefit this has. i think this attitude is going to cause alot more problems than it will solve.
i think the take away message from these recent deaths is that people need to stop addressing their issues with the police on the street and handle them in the court. if they are going to arrest you then let them arrest you and take them to court and sue the shit out of the police department. if you have video and you are legit then you will be fine.

I'm not sure which video you watched, but I know there is a shorter 2 minute version and a longer 8 minute version which captured the whole encounter. The chokehold lasted at least 8 seconds and possibly up to 19 seconds because as Garner went down and was surrounded by officers, the view of the officer's chokehold became obscured. Within that period, he pleaded "I can't breathe" repeatedly, at least 5 times. I agree that it was a freak accident and the officer couldn't have known he had an asthma condition, however the chokehold itself was in violation of NYPD policies. The guy leaned over to him as if he was going whisper something in his ear, then sucker choked him immediately to take him down. There was no "put your hands behind your back" or "you're under arrest" uttered giving him a chance to comply before physical force was used. It was basically an argument over what he was doing on that corner. They thought he was vending cigarettes, which he had been known to do before. He and several witnesses who were around stated that he had been breaking up a fight. It was his defiance over being accused of illegally vending and the argument that ensued that lead to the chokehold. On top of the fact that NYPD authorities have themselves stated the chokehold violated policy, the medical examiners who did the autopsy ruled that Garner died as a result of neck compression, NOT asthma attack or cardiac arrest as was suggested by police spokesmen. They (the police) stated he died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, but it appeared by the end of the 8 minute video that he was already dead, right there on the scene as he was unresponsive to anything when the EMT showed up. The EMT checked his pulse (on the scene) and did not administer CPR, probably because there wasn't any point (he didn't have any pulse).
If someone who is not a cop chokes someone else and the cause of death was ruled as being due to neck compression, would you be arguing that the person should not be charged because they only applied the choke for a short time and there's no way they could have known that their victim had a preexisiting medical condition? The fact that someone is an officer doesn't mean EVERYTHING they do while in uniform is in the capacity of an officer. I'm pretty sure that for NYPD officers to perform bank robberies is against their policy too and that there would be no hesitation in prosecuting a bank-robbing officer due to the fact he's a cop, because, unless he was an undercover in some sort of sting operation to bring down the other bank robbers, he wasn't acting in the capacity of an officer when he robbed the bank. I think a safe rule to go by is: when an officer acts outside of police policy and code of conduct, as Eric Garner's choker has done, they are not acting in the capacity of an officer, therefore, there should be no leverage to them being a cop in considering whether and how they should be prosecuted. Otherwise we will continue to have officers who get away with anything, even choking someone to death on cam.

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Jason

You probably have a point.
Where there is smoke there is fire, and if this many people are claiming that police are being racist towards the black community there is probably an element of truth to it.
I think the problem lies in the fact that people are latching on to the wrong cases to make this point.
If you watch the video carefully you'll see that there is literally only one second where the cop has him in the chokehold and he is saying he cannot breathe. After Garner is brought to the ground the other cops say "hes down" and the choke is released. His airway was not being restricted the majority of the time the police had him on the ground and he said he couldnt breathe. There is no way the police would have been able to foresee that he would have an asthma attack that would restrict his airways. There was obviously no malicious intent whatsoever, his death was tragic but an obvious accident.
As a completely unbiased educated person it seems blatantly obvious that this cop should not be charged. Sure he should be disciplined that he used an illegal choke but theres no way he could have anticipated that the man would die as a result .. how is it fair to hold him accountable for murder for a completely freak accident?
There is also the fact that the leader of the team that took Garner down was a black woman.
I have yet to see a high profile case video where someone is co-operating completely and entirely and they still somehow end up dead. as far as i have seen there has always been a valid reason at least to some extent why things happened the way they did. in this case Garner started retaliating when the cops went to cuff him and unfortunately it cost him his life. maybe if he didnt resist things would have turned out differently.. who knows. the point is, never give the police a reason to have to get aggressive with you. and thats not a "black person" thing.. that goes for everyone and anyone. I got pulled over a while ago and I rolled my window down and left both hands on the outside of my car while the cop approached my car. 99% of the time being courteous and non-threatening will get you out of escalating a situation with the police. most of the time people don't behave courteous and non-threatning. I saw a video the other day of an black ex new york detective telling people not to answer the cops when they ask them simple questions and to stand there with your arms folded or to walk away. he made it sound like every single cop is out to get black people and the best course of action is to act like an arrogant douche and not provide simple information and be on your way. people are taking these cases and using them as a tool to poison everyone against law enforcement. i dont see what benefit this has. i think this attitude is going to cause alot more problems than it will solve.
i think the take away message from these recent deaths is that people need to stop addressing their issues with the police on the street and handle them in the court. if they are going to arrest you then let them arrest you and take them to court and sue the shit out of the police department. if you have video and you are legit then you will be fine.

I'm not sure which video you watched, but I know there is a shorter 2 minute version and a longer 8 minute version which captured the whole encounter. The chokehold lasted at least 8 seconds and possibly up to 19 seconds because as Garner went down and was surrounded by officers, the view of the officer's chokehold became obscured. Within that period, he pleaded "I can't breathe" repeatedly, at least 5 times. I agree that it was a freak accident and the officer couldn't have known he had an asthma condition, however the chokehold itself was in violation of NYPD policies. The guy leaned over to him as if he was going whisper something in his ear, then sucker choked him immediately to take him down. There was no "put your hands behind your back" or "you're under arrest" uttered giving him a chance to comply before physical force was used. It was basically an argument over what he was doing on that corner. They thought he was vending cigarettes, which he had been known to do before. He and several witnesses who were around stated that he had been breaking up a fight. It was his defiance over being accused of illegally vending and the argument that ensued that lead to the chokehold. On top of the fact that NYPD authorities have themselves stated the chokehold violated policy, the medical examiners who did the autopsy ruled that Garner died as a result of neck compression, NOT asthma attack or cardiac arrest as was suggested by police spokesmen. They (the police) stated he died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, but it appeared by the end of the 8 minute video that he was already dead, right there on the scene as he was unresponsive to anything when the EMT showed up. The EMT checked his pulse (on the scene) and did not administer CPR, probably because there wasn't any point (he didn't have any pulse).
If someone who is not a cop chokes someone else and the cause of death was ruled as being due to neck compression, would you be arguing that the person should not be charged because they only applied the choke for a short time and there's no way they could have known that their victim had a preexisiting medical condition? The fact that someone is an officer doesn't mean EVERYTHING they do while in uniform is in the capacity of an officer. I'm pretty sure that for NYPD officers to perform bank robberies is against their policy too and that there would be no hesitation in prosecuting a bank-robbing officer due to the fact he's a cop, because, unless he was an undercover in some sort of sting operation to bring down the other bank robbers, he wasn't acting in the capacity of an officer when he robbed the bank. I think a safe rule to go by is: when an officer acts outside of police policy and code of conduct, as Eric Garner's choker has done, they are not acting in the capacity of an officer, therefore, there should be no leverage to them being a cop in considering whether and how they should be prosecuted. Otherwise we will continue to have officers who get away with anything, even choking someone to death on cam.

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Jason

"It was his defiance over being accused of illegally vending and the argument that ensued that lead to the chokehold." no it was not. it was him putting up his arms and refusing to peacefully surrender that led to the chokehold. if he was not fighting back there would have been no need to apply the choke. if he put his hands behind his back and complied, why would they have needed to apply force?? they wouldnt have.
it was very clear that the officer was going to arrest him and he did not comply, he retaliated.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/v...ld-death-video

at 1:36 he says he cant breathe for the first time
at 1:38 the chokehold is no longer being applied

This was the two minute version and if you notice, there were multiple clips as opposed to one continuous clip which made the time seem shorter. If I were you, I wouldn't base my sense of how long things lasted until I have seen the full 8 minute video because this is just the abbreviated version for news broadcast on this link.
Second, he DID NOT fight back. He was verbally defiant, not physically. He said "I wasn't doing anything," "this stops today," and when they started trying to take him down, he said "don't touch me." However, at no point did he throw his hands toward any of the officers as if to strike or punch them, which is what I would consider "fighting back." If he did, please reference the exact time on the clip. He put his hands up once they started choking him. That looks more like a surrender or distress signal than "fighting back." Like I mentioned before, they did not utter "you're under arrest" before they proceeded to take him down, so I don't know how tenable is the arguement that he did not comply. It's possible that he didn't know he was going to be arrested and thought they were just arguing, especially since he wasn't told. Does a police officer have a right to put their hands on you against your will without letting you know you are under arrest? Why would he had put his hands behind his back when they hadn't asked him to? Prior to the chokehold, it wasn't made clear he was being arrested. They seem to choke him out of anger at his verbal defiance over the argument they were having.


there is literally a two second period where he claims he cannot breathe to the time the chokehold is released.
Im not disputing that the chokehold was a breach of policy. im disputing people calling this man a murderer over an unfortunate accident. regardless, it would be foolish for a police officer to loosen his grip on such a physically superior suspect without having him properly restrained, there would be no way to verify if he actually couldnt breathe or not.
Like I said, watch the full video. The choke lasted longer than two seconds. There was no need to restrain him. He hadn't been told he was under arrest and he did not fight back once they ganged up on him. Perhaps it was his size and the thought that he might resist since had said "don't touch me" which made them take such a violent approach, but he was only verbally defiant. Putting him in a chokehold was so unnecessary.
and how could he possibly have died as a result of compression to the neck when he was not in a chokehold when he died? when the officer releases the choke he is obviously still alive .. he is in distress but he is alive. maybe the choke provoked some other biological response.. but he couldnt have died from compression to the neck unless someone choked him to death in the ambulance or the choke was so forceful that he destroyed his airway which does not seem like the case at all.
Arguing that he couldn't have died from the choke because he was not in a choke when he died makes very little sense tbh. If I shot someone and they died an hour later in the hospital, would you argue that they couldn't have died as a result of my shooting because by the time they died, I had stopped shooting and an hour had passed? From seeing the full 8 minute video, I would speculate that he died on the scene because before they even put him on the stretcher to take him to the ambulance, he appeared totally lifeless and unresponsive. However, neither one of us are professionally equipped to say exactly when he died and from what, so I'd just go with what the medical examiners say since that's their forté.
i still have yet to see a credible source report the actual cause of death
You would be arguing with the medical examiners because they're the ones who stated cause of death was due to neck compression, not me. As far as credible source, this article about the medical examiner's official cause of death is from the Associated Press website: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/medic...ruled-homicide


"when an officer acts outside of police policy and code of conduct, as Eric Garner's choker has done, they are not acting in the capacity of an officer, therefore, there should be no leverage to them being a cop in considering whether and how they should be prosecuted." yes this is fair enough, but why would an ordinary citizen be charged for murder?? The only reason this is getting so much attention is simply BECAUSE he is a cop. it works against him much more than it works for him. i dont think a regular joe would have the world erupting in protest over this. people just hate the cops .. meh

I agree that a regular Joe wouldn't have had the world erupting over a similar case, however, regular Joe's aren't sworn to "serve and protect." The fact that he's a cop IS working against him as it is giving him leverage as you've stated, and probably more so the fact that he's a White cop, since that happens to be a recurring theme in the Black community, even when it doesn't make national news. People aren't reacting to these headline cases alone. Police abuse happens A LOT in minority neigborhoods and you might have to live in one for some time to truly understand. I've had a White cop put a gun to my head before over me simply asking why him and his partner had stopped me, my brother and my friend Mike. Some of these dudes are so big and bad when they have a gun and a badge. You'd be surprised what people go through at the hands of cops. But what I think everyone should realize is that the people reacting to and protesting over Mike Brown, Travon Martin, Eric Garner, aren't responding to these cases alone.

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Jason

"It was his defiance over being accused of illegally vending and the argument that ensued that lead to the chokehold." no it was not. it was him putting up his arms and refusing to peacefully surrender that led to the chokehold. if he was not fighting back there would have been no need to apply the choke. if he put his hands behind his back and complied, why would they have needed to apply force?? they wouldnt have.
it was very clear that the officer was going to arrest him and he did not comply, he retaliated.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/v...ld-death-video

at 1:36 he says he cant breathe for the first time
at 1:38 the chokehold is no longer being applied

This was the two minute version and if you notice, there were multiple clips as opposed to one continuous clip which made the time seem shorter. If I were you, I wouldn't base my sense of how long things lasted until I have seen the full 8 minute video because this is just the abbreviated version for news broadcast on this link.
Second, he DID NOT fight back. He was verbally defiant, not physically. He said "I wasn't doing anything," "this stops today," and when they started trying to take him down, he said "don't touch me." However, at no point did he throw his hands toward any of the officers as if to strike or punch them, which is what I would consider "fighting back." If he did, please reference the exact time on the clip. He put his hands up once they started choking him. That looks more like a surrender or distress signal than "fighting back." Like I mentioned before, they did not utter "you're under arrest" before they proceeded to take him down, so I don't know how tenable is the arguement that he did not comply. It's possible that he didn't know he was going to be arrested and thought they were just arguing, especially since he wasn't told. Does a police officer have a right to put their hands on you against your will without letting you know you are under arrest? Why would he had put his hands behind his back when they hadn't asked him to? Prior to the chokehold, it wasn't made clear he was being arrested. They seem to choke him out of anger at his verbal defiance over the argument they were having.


there is literally a two second period where he claims he cannot breathe to the time the chokehold is released.
Im not disputing that the chokehold was a breach of policy. im disputing people calling this man a murderer over an unfortunate accident. regardless, it would be foolish for a police officer to loosen his grip on such a physically superior suspect without having him properly restrained, there would be no way to verify if he actually couldnt breathe or not.
Like I said, watch the full video. The choke lasted longer than two seconds. There was no need to restrain him. He hadn't been told he was under arrest and he did not fight back once they ganged up on him. Perhaps it was his size and the thought that he might resist since had said "don't touch me" which made them take such a violent approach, but he was only verbally defiant. Putting him in a chokehold was so unnecessary.
and how could he possibly have died as a result of compression to the neck when he was not in a chokehold when he died? when the officer releases the choke he is obviously still alive .. he is in distress but he is alive. maybe the choke provoked some other biological response.. but he couldnt have died from compression to the neck unless someone choked him to death in the ambulance or the choke was so forceful that he destroyed his airway which does not seem like the case at all.
Arguing that he couldn't have died from the choke because he was not in a choke when he died makes very little sense tbh. If I shot someone and they died an hour later in the hospital, would you argue that they couldn't have died as a result of my shooting because by the time they died, I had stopped shooting and an hour had passed? From seeing the full 8 minute video, I would speculate that he died on the scene because before they even put him on the stretcher to take him to the ambulance, he appeared totally lifeless and unresponsive. However, neither one of us are professionally equipped to say exactly when he died and from what, so I'd just go with what the medical examiners say since that's their forté.
i still have yet to see a credible source report the actual cause of death
You would be arguing with the medical examiners because they're the ones who stated cause of death was due to neck compression, not me. As far as credible source, this article about the medical examiner's official cause of death is from the Associated Press website: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/medic...ruled-homicide


"when an officer acts outside of police policy and code of conduct, as Eric Garner's choker has done, they are not acting in the capacity of an officer, therefore, there should be no leverage to them being a cop in considering whether and how they should be prosecuted." yes this is fair enough, but why would an ordinary citizen be charged for murder?? The only reason this is getting so much attention is simply BECAUSE he is a cop. it works against him much more than it works for him. i dont think a regular joe would have the world erupting in protest over this. people just hate the cops .. meh

I agree that a regular Joe wouldn't have had the world erupting over a similar case, however, regular Joe's aren't sworn to "serve and protect." The fact that he's a cop IS working against him as it is giving him leverage as you've stated, and probably more so the fact that he's a White cop, since that happens to be a recurring theme in the Black community, even when it doesn't make national news. People aren't reacting to these headline cases alone. Police abuse happens A LOT in minority neigborhoods and you might have to live in one for some time to truly understand. I've had a White cop put a gun to my head before over me simply asking why him and his partner had stopped me, my brother and my friend Mike. Some of these dudes are so big and bad when they have a gun and a badge. You'd be surprised what people go through at the hands of cops. But what I think everyone should realize is that the people reacting to and protesting over Mike Brown, Travon Martin, Eric Garner, aren't responding to these cases alone.