Originally Posted by NOBLE

To us, everything that exists comes with a concept, no matter our notion of objectivity and how objective we try to be. We never perceive objects directly. We only see concepts or our mind's visualization or attempted reconstructions of them. Therefore, it is hard to argue the existence of something independent of our perception or conceptualization, when in order to know of such an existence itself takes conceptualizing. If you believe that "existence" should be reserved for only things with concrete or material reality, you'll run into problems quickly. You wouldn't be able to say things like love or the number 2 exists. After all, you can't pick up the number 2 or weight it or put it in a bag. There are only instances of and symbolizations of it, but you can't find what we call "two" in material reality. You wouldn't even be able to say that movies exist. If I ask you to go bring me a movie and you brought me a blu-Ray disk copy of Pirates of the Caribbean, like numbers, that wouldn't actually be a "movie" but rather an instance or symbolization of one.

Yes, everything comes with a concept. Sometimes we can invent objects or concepts in our mind. They still don't exist though.

If you have the concept of a business, you don't suddenly have a business. Existence isn't reserved for things that are concrete and solid. War exists for example. Thoughts exist. But to conceptualize isn't to create. Yes there are things beyond our conceptualization or perception that exist, and God may very well be one of those things, but in the event that there isn't a deity, the shear concept alone doesn't will it into existence.

If you wanted to break it down, the benefits and negatives of a deity exist. Someone's life may be changed, good or bad, based on the concept of a deity. But that deity isn't any more in existence because of it.

Another example is perception of people who are no longer here, or the belief in fictional characters. If someone is raised to believe that Columbus was a good guy, that did good things and helped the world...that may be the concept, but that doesn't bring that tale into existence. The reality still exists, and that's the only thing that will truly exist.

Originally Posted by NOBLE

To us, everything that exists comes with a concept, no matter our notion of objectivity and how objective we try to be. We never perceive objects directly. We only see concepts or our mind's visualization or attempted reconstructions of them. Therefore, it is hard to argue the existence of something independent of our perception or conceptualization, when in order to know of such an existence itself takes conceptualizing. If you believe that "existence" should be reserved for only things with concrete or material reality, you'll run into problems quickly. You wouldn't be able to say things like love or the number 2 exists. After all, you can't pick up the number 2 or weight it or put it in a bag. There are only instances of and symbolizations of it, but you can't find what we call "two" in material reality. You wouldn't even be able to say that movies exist. If I ask you to go bring me a movie and you brought me a blu-Ray disk copy of Pirates of the Caribbean, like numbers, that wouldn't actually be a "movie" but rather an instance or symbolization of one.

Yes, everything comes with a concept. Sometimes we can invent objects or concepts in our mind. They still don't exist though.

If you have the concept of a business, you don't suddenly have a business. Existence isn't reserved for things that are concrete and solid. War exists for example. Thoughts exist. But to conceptualize isn't to create. Yes there are things beyond our conceptualization or perception that exist, and God may very well be one of those things, but in the event that there isn't a deity, the shear concept alone doesn't will it into existence.

If you wanted to break it down, the benefits and negatives of a deity exist. Someone's life may be changed, good or bad, based on the concept of a deity. But that deity isn't any more in existence because of it.

Another example is perception of people who are no longer here, or the belief in fictional characters. If someone is raised to believe that Columbus was a good guy, that did good things and helped the world...that may be the concept, but that doesn't bring that tale into existence. The reality still exists, and that's the only thing that will truly exist.