[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Jason

"It was his defiance over being accused of illegally vending and the argument that ensued that lead to the chokehold." no it was not. it was him putting up his arms and refusing to peacefully surrender that led to the chokehold. if he was not fighting back there would have been no need to apply the choke. if he put his hands behind his back and complied, why would they have needed to apply force?? they wouldnt have.
it was very clear that the officer was going to arrest him and he did not comply, he retaliated.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/v...ld-death-video

at 1:36 he says he cant breathe for the first time
at 1:38 the chokehold is no longer being applied

This was the two minute version and if you notice, there were multiple clips as opposed to one continuous clip which made the time seem shorter. If I were you, I wouldn't base my sense of how long things lasted until I have seen the full 8 minute video because this is just the abbreviated version for news broadcast on this link.
Second, he DID NOT fight back. He was verbally defiant, not physically. He said "I wasn't doing anything," "this stops today," and when they started trying to take him down, he said "don't touch me." However, at no point did he throw his hands toward any of the officers as if to strike or punch them, which is what I would consider "fighting back." If he did, please reference the exact time on the clip. He put his hands up once they started choking him. That looks more like a surrender or distress signal than "fighting back." Like I mentioned before, they did not utter "you're under arrest" before they proceeded to take him down, so I don't know how tenable is the arguement that he did not comply. It's possible that he didn't know he was going to be arrested and thought they were just arguing, especially since he wasn't told. Does a police officer have a right to put their hands on you against your will without letting you know you are under arrest? Why would he had put his hands behind his back when they hadn't asked him to? Prior to the chokehold, it wasn't made clear he was being arrested. They seem to choke him out of anger at his verbal defiance over the argument they were having.


there is literally a two second period where he claims he cannot breathe to the time the chokehold is released.
Im not disputing that the chokehold was a breach of policy. im disputing people calling this man a murderer over an unfortunate accident. regardless, it would be foolish for a police officer to loosen his grip on such a physically superior suspect without having him properly restrained, there would be no way to verify if he actually couldnt breathe or not.
Like I said, watch the full video. The choke lasted longer than two seconds. There was no need to restrain him. He hadn't been told he was under arrest and he did not fight back once they ganged up on him. Perhaps it was his size and the thought that he might resist since had said "don't touch me" which made them take such a violent approach, but he was only verbally defiant. Putting him in a chokehold was so unnecessary.
and how could he possibly have died as a result of compression to the neck when he was not in a chokehold when he died? when the officer releases the choke he is obviously still alive .. he is in distress but he is alive. maybe the choke provoked some other biological response.. but he couldnt have died from compression to the neck unless someone choked him to death in the ambulance or the choke was so forceful that he destroyed his airway which does not seem like the case at all.
Arguing that he couldn't have died from the choke because he was not in a choke when he died makes very little sense tbh. If I shot someone and they died an hour later in the hospital, would you argue that they couldn't have died as a result of my shooting because by the time they died, I had stopped shooting and an hour had passed? From seeing the full 8 minute video, I would speculate that he died on the scene because before they even put him on the stretcher to take him to the ambulance, he appeared totally lifeless and unresponsive. However, neither one of us are professionally equipped to say exactly when he died and from what, so I'd just go with what the medical examiners say since that's their forté.
i still have yet to see a credible source report the actual cause of death
You would be arguing with the medical examiners because they're the ones who stated cause of death was due to neck compression, not me. As far as credible source, this article about the medical examiner's official cause of death is from the Associated Press website: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/medic...ruled-homicide


"when an officer acts outside of police policy and code of conduct, as Eric Garner's choker has done, they are not acting in the capacity of an officer, therefore, there should be no leverage to them being a cop in considering whether and how they should be prosecuted." yes this is fair enough, but why would an ordinary citizen be charged for murder?? The only reason this is getting so much attention is simply BECAUSE he is a cop. it works against him much more than it works for him. i dont think a regular joe would have the world erupting in protest over this. people just hate the cops .. meh

I agree that a regular Joe wouldn't have had the world erupting over a similar case, however, regular Joe's aren't sworn to "serve and protect." The fact that he's a cop IS working against him as it is giving him leverage as you've stated, and probably more so the fact that he's a White cop, since that happens to be a recurring theme in the Black community, even when it doesn't make national news. People aren't reacting to these headline cases alone. Police abuse happens A LOT in minority neigborhoods and you might have to live in one for some time to truly understand. I've had a White cop put a gun to my head before over me simply asking why him and his partner had stopped me, my brother and my friend Mike. Some of these dudes are so big and bad when they have a gun and a badge. You'd be surprised what people go through at the hands of cops. But what I think everyone should realize is that the people reacting to and protesting over Mike Brown, Travon Martin, Eric Garner, aren't responding to these cases alone.

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Jason

"It was his defiance over being accused of illegally vending and the argument that ensued that lead to the chokehold." no it was not. it was him putting up his arms and refusing to peacefully surrender that led to the chokehold. if he was not fighting back there would have been no need to apply the choke. if he put his hands behind his back and complied, why would they have needed to apply force?? they wouldnt have.
it was very clear that the officer was going to arrest him and he did not comply, he retaliated.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/v...ld-death-video

at 1:36 he says he cant breathe for the first time
at 1:38 the chokehold is no longer being applied

This was the two minute version and if you notice, there were multiple clips as opposed to one continuous clip which made the time seem shorter. If I were you, I wouldn't base my sense of how long things lasted until I have seen the full 8 minute video because this is just the abbreviated version for news broadcast on this link.
Second, he DID NOT fight back. He was verbally defiant, not physically. He said "I wasn't doing anything," "this stops today," and when they started trying to take him down, he said "don't touch me." However, at no point did he throw his hands toward any of the officers as if to strike or punch them, which is what I would consider "fighting back." If he did, please reference the exact time on the clip. He put his hands up once they started choking him. That looks more like a surrender or distress signal than "fighting back." Like I mentioned before, they did not utter "you're under arrest" before they proceeded to take him down, so I don't know how tenable is the arguement that he did not comply. It's possible that he didn't know he was going to be arrested and thought they were just arguing, especially since he wasn't told. Does a police officer have a right to put their hands on you against your will without letting you know you are under arrest? Why would he had put his hands behind his back when they hadn't asked him to? Prior to the chokehold, it wasn't made clear he was being arrested. They seem to choke him out of anger at his verbal defiance over the argument they were having.


there is literally a two second period where he claims he cannot breathe to the time the chokehold is released.
Im not disputing that the chokehold was a breach of policy. im disputing people calling this man a murderer over an unfortunate accident. regardless, it would be foolish for a police officer to loosen his grip on such a physically superior suspect without having him properly restrained, there would be no way to verify if he actually couldnt breathe or not.
Like I said, watch the full video. The choke lasted longer than two seconds. There was no need to restrain him. He hadn't been told he was under arrest and he did not fight back once they ganged up on him. Perhaps it was his size and the thought that he might resist since had said "don't touch me" which made them take such a violent approach, but he was only verbally defiant. Putting him in a chokehold was so unnecessary.
and how could he possibly have died as a result of compression to the neck when he was not in a chokehold when he died? when the officer releases the choke he is obviously still alive .. he is in distress but he is alive. maybe the choke provoked some other biological response.. but he couldnt have died from compression to the neck unless someone choked him to death in the ambulance or the choke was so forceful that he destroyed his airway which does not seem like the case at all.
Arguing that he couldn't have died from the choke because he was not in a choke when he died makes very little sense tbh. If I shot someone and they died an hour later in the hospital, would you argue that they couldn't have died as a result of my shooting because by the time they died, I had stopped shooting and an hour had passed? From seeing the full 8 minute video, I would speculate that he died on the scene because before they even put him on the stretcher to take him to the ambulance, he appeared totally lifeless and unresponsive. However, neither one of us are professionally equipped to say exactly when he died and from what, so I'd just go with what the medical examiners say since that's their forté.
i still have yet to see a credible source report the actual cause of death
You would be arguing with the medical examiners because they're the ones who stated cause of death was due to neck compression, not me. As far as credible source, this article about the medical examiner's official cause of death is from the Associated Press website: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/medic...ruled-homicide


"when an officer acts outside of police policy and code of conduct, as Eric Garner's choker has done, they are not acting in the capacity of an officer, therefore, there should be no leverage to them being a cop in considering whether and how they should be prosecuted." yes this is fair enough, but why would an ordinary citizen be charged for murder?? The only reason this is getting so much attention is simply BECAUSE he is a cop. it works against him much more than it works for him. i dont think a regular joe would have the world erupting in protest over this. people just hate the cops .. meh

I agree that a regular Joe wouldn't have had the world erupting over a similar case, however, regular Joe's aren't sworn to "serve and protect." The fact that he's a cop IS working against him as it is giving him leverage as you've stated, and probably more so the fact that he's a White cop, since that happens to be a recurring theme in the Black community, even when it doesn't make national news. People aren't reacting to these headline cases alone. Police abuse happens A LOT in minority neigborhoods and you might have to live in one for some time to truly understand. I've had a White cop put a gun to my head before over me simply asking why him and his partner had stopped me, my brother and my friend Mike. Some of these dudes are so big and bad when they have a gun and a badge. You'd be surprised what people go through at the hands of cops. But what I think everyone should realize is that the people reacting to and protesting over Mike Brown, Travon Martin, Eric Garner, aren't responding to these cases alone.