Conversation between EtH and NOBLE
 

Me and EtH had this debate about Rap music and topicals. I just want to know what you guys think. Are topicals separate from Rap? Is Rap music poetry?

NOBLE
cool
you know the audio topicals are scheduled for next month?
8:04pmEtH
Yeah? To me, that's just audio with a storyline, not related imo
8:14pmNOBLE
you don't want to run it?
its actually scheduled for July http://www.letsbeef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124538
8:18pmEtH
To me, it's not topicals. It doesn't involve ANY of the main components which make topicals what they are.
It's basically just rapping with a story.
8:19pmNOBLE
it can be ran like topicals. you can give them a topic or an image
8:19pmEtH
Best rapper wins. It's like having a contest to see which major poet has the best voice. Wouldn't be a fan personally.
8:19pmNOBLE
and aren't topicals rap?
that depends on the voter. not everyone looks at things one-dimensionally
8:20pmEtH
I know plenty of topical writers who use NO elements from rap, and it works
Just like I know plenty that use no elements from poetry you know. It's kind of everything together which you don't get in the rap only format.
Dono's spoken word shit would kill anything Stricc could write I'd imagine, but no chance he'd win.
8:21pmNOBLE
I don't think saying it in audio makes it necessarily non-poetic or non-topical
at the same time, this IS a rap website, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with a topical having a rap element
8:23pmNOBLE
I don't agree
if it was all about voice, there's no way Dono would even be regarded as highly as he is
people here understand topicals
and to the extent that they don't, we can help them get there
8:24pmEtH
This would be TOO much about rap. It's basically poetry with rap elements, and not the other way around. It wouldn't work out that way with rapping. Slick Rick is considered one of the best rap storytellers of all time, says it all.
It's like bringing a book into a movie. It can work out, but it always cuts out a lot.
8:25pmEtH
Only the way I'd see it you know. I'm not actually a huge non-track audio fan tbh
8:25pmNOBLE
Rap is poetry though
8:26pmEtH
I've heard that a lot, I never believed it though. Rap has NONE of the elements poetry has with the exception of lyricism to me.
8:26pmNOBLE
R.A.P = (Rhythm And Poetry)
8:26pmEtH
And peoms barley have any lyriciscm.
8:26pmNOBLE
there are many different styles to poetry
without a beat, that's all rap is
8:27pmEtH
Rap is rhythm and rhyming to me. The storytelling is basic, in nearly all forms of rap, and there is next to no imagery.
8:27pmNOBLE
don't topicals often rhyme?
and rap doesn't have to rhyme
8:28pmEtH
Immortal Technique - Dance with the Devil, often regarded as one of the strongest pieces of storytewlling in rap, to which I agree, but it's nothing compared to ACTUAL storytelling.
Yeah topicals always rhyme.
8:28pmNOBLE
the storytelling doesn't have to be basic
8:28pmEtH
But it always is.
8:28pmNOBLE
it depends on who you're listening to
and ther is plenty of imagery in rap
8:28pmEtH
I'm actually not a big rap fan tbh anymore.
8:28pmNOBLE
you sound like someone who's not a rap fan
8:29pmEtH
Yeah I've fallen out of it in recent years. I just listen to my few favourite songs and that's about it.
8:29pmNOBLE
word
some people who don't like rap don't even consider it music
I guess you have to be a true fan to see it as music as well as poetry and art
8:30pmEtH
Yeah "It's just words" smh lol. I don't really regard it an "artform" though. Lady Gaga isn't an artist to me either though. The people making the music is the artist imo.
Dre is the artist, Em isn't imo.
8:31pmNOBLE
its two different types of art
8:32pmEtH
People who act in rap show art though. Like 2pac's emotional ranges etc. Eminem has some slight examples, but I feel his more emotional recent stuff to be VERY false.
8:32pmNOBLE
that's like saying Picasso isn't an artist. it's the person who made the acrylic paint he used that's the real artist
8:33pmEtH
It just doesn't seem that hard to be able to spit a few bars. I feel like, given the few natural talents the guys have, I could EASILY do what any normal rapper in the world can do, 2pac being the only hard one to replicate.

In summary, I don't really see rap as a form of poetry or a demonstration of art. I think it's exactly what it says on the tin, and it's guys spitting bars on music. The how to rap books and everything are over complicated and give false illusions of what rap is.

For anyone in UK/Ireland, I believe there was a TV show on Channel 4 called Life of Rhyme, where it showed a school teaching Devlin lyrics to a class. I thought this was JUST a way for the school to be "down with the kids", and comparing Devlin's lyrics to even a simple piece of poetry like Elizabeth Bishop's "The Trout" shows the big contrast in rap and actual poetry.

:D

My position is, Rap IS Poetry. Rap isn't limited to spitting on a beat, and without a beat, all you pretty much have left is poetry. Saying Rap doesn't have any of the elements of poetry is assuming that poetry only has one style/format. There are many types of poetry (haiku, etc). And Rap DOES use poetic elements. Metaphor is a poetic element. I can give countless examples of metaphor, alliteration, onomatopoeia and all these other elements of poetry in Rap.

Lmao ETH trying to clown audio side of things

Not it's nothing to do with the "audio side". I had this exact debate on Netcees. This time I didn't bring it up, so it's not my usual "Speak down on rap on a rap site to cause a stir" kind of shit haha.

There are some slight poetic techniques in rap, but not enough for me to compare them. Metaphors are also present in movies, but I wouldn't really say movies are rap or poetry either. I just don't listen to rap and feel it's the same. For example, go onto Rap Genius. Look at the expo for all of their words. You can literally go to town dissecting the never ending metaphors in Shakespear, but like a 4 word expo is needed for almost any metaphor in any rap song. It's a completely different level. The only thing rap has, when stripped down, over poetry is lyricism. Mix all of those intricate little details of poetry, in with the flow and lyricism of rap, and you have my view of a topical.

poetry =literary art used in different styles of writing techniques to evoke emotive response..

rap =a form of poetry.. art. utilizing words spoken in rhthm flow and/or rhyme .

topical= a piece with a main subject or focus ..ex. an essay.

anymore questions?

^Michael Moles or Henrik Larsson?

Movies/books/=type of medium created for the purpose of entertainment or learning..
art=a subjective notion describing ones creation.,in different forms or medium.. ex. martial arts.

Rap goes into the entertainment pile for me.

If You Don't Think Rap Is Poetry, You Aren't Listening To Real Rap. Nuff Said.

Are you saying that poetry is not a form of entertainment?

But what is REAL rap? Isn't it ALL an artform by the defender's logic? To me, the basic storytelling, tiny instances of imagery, non subtle metaphors and falseness in rap turns me away from it being "good" poetry.

When I hear someone saying "I'm just telling the stories of the streets, and saying what I see", I always find it to be false bullshit. Really, they are just generically talking about guns, drugs and bitches, but trying to make it seem genuine and intellectual.

I did say to NOBLE that I respect the acting rappers put into their work. Eminem and 2pac put in emotions depending on the piece, and it sets a tone which is something very common in poetry. Em's recent stuff is very false and forced for emotional teenagers, but the way their mood comes off like a performance would put certain characteristics in an artistic light for me.

@_Free, different definition of entertainment. You wouldn't say a poet would be a part of the entertainment industry, while I would say NaS, Vinny Paz and Big L were part of the entertainment industry.

But ti's still entertainment. It doesn't have to be your story for you to tell it neither. Rappers lying in music is bad, saying things like I while not being descriptive. Lupe Fiasco told the story of drug dealers nice cars and such without saying "I". Rap is still poetry it's still a by product of hip hop which is a by product of the harlem R word movement.(Can't remember how to spell it) It's poetry dude just not the form your most fond of.

People can and often do lie in poetry and topicals as well when they write based on an imaginary given topic or personify someone else's experience.

for the sake of story yeah. but alot of time these rappers claim it as their reality.

^^True. If poetry was as commercialized and marketable as Rap and making up stories was what sells, I can imagine two things: (1) A lot more poets would personify other people's stories for the sake of story, and (2) EtH would consider them part of the Entertainment Industry.

In the 1800's poetry was commercialized, some of our most celebrated poems are written as a 1st person narrative , just like hip hop songs are. But yet they are complete fiction, just like hip hop songs are..the difference is the marketing. Rappers are marketed through the video's and photo shoots as if these songs are telling there life story, when in fact they are telling the stories that apparently the consumer wants to hear. Take Edgar Allen Poe, all his poems read as a narrative, like the writer is telling a story that came directly from his life..rap songs are same...thing is that rappers relish in the assumptions that every word they say is truth and say nothing to lead us to think else. When Poe was asked about his classic "The Raven" He said it was not based on anything he had experienced in his life..and he wrote all his poems very logically and methodically, intending to create a poem that would appeal to both critical and popular tastes. The problem is in this generation, we celebrate the artist, the enigma, we idolize them. Back then they appreciated the work for what it was..pure entertainment..no one was outraged that "Annabelle Lee wasn't really one of edgar's bitches

personally i've never been a fan of poems that dont rhyme,not saying talent isnt involved, but it gets boring quickly. and what about mos def??? is he not a rapper\poet ?

I didn't mean false as in lying about their story, I meant false as in pretending their song about guns and shit was a "tale of the streets". Really they are just uncreative and don't know how to write a proper story. (To Free, NOBLE and Skin).

Agreed Stricc. The rhyme is a HUGE part of it, and it adds the actual challenge in to the mix.

I just watched the Don't Flop battle between Arkaic and Illmaculate and at the end, they interviewed Arkaic and asked him what he thinks makes Don'T Flop different from other battle leagues and he said it's the fact that they aren't as Rap based. I don't fully understand what he means by that, but it sounds like the same thing you're saying @EtH. Would you say Don't Flop battlers are more "topical" in their approach to battle Rap?

It's because there is less black guys :D. That's actually true. When you look at the American leagues, there are guys who are trying to flex their rap skills and lyricism. In Don't Flop, it's mainly about the jokes and bars because so many of them couldn't give a fuck about becoming an ACTUAL rapper.

EtH, I'm curious about your opinion on other forms of music. Do you feel the same way about other lyrical genres, whereas all (lyrical) music is just a form of entertainment? Or do you feel the "art" aspect of lyricism is entirely based on things you've noted, such as imagery, subtleness and honesty? You've got a unique perspective and I find it quite interesting.

Respect,
P.C

I'll admit i don't watch don't Flop very often. But I guess you see lyricism as something that gets in the way of the actual topic/bar/joke whereas I see it as something that embellishes it. All the elements that create lyricism are the same elements used in poetry. Its just like someone's verse can be more focused on flow and multies but that doesn't meant they don't have an actual subject matter (topic/bars/jokes). I think I see more of your point now though.

Yeah you often see people who have just bars of dope rhyming, and it's like, alright, that's pretty cool and all, but why should I be impressed? The goal is to write to a topic, or to write punches at your opponent. ONLY doing lyricism isn't impressive at all to me.

I doubt the majority of rappers have even read a full book before (I haven't either). It's not a very intellectually fuelled industry, so that's why we see so little intelligent additions to the rap game. For it to be poetry, you'd have to have poetic techniques, and I bet the majority of current rappers cant explain what alliteration is. Sure you have a few guys, like as someone said before Mos Def and Lupe, but you cant hold ALL of rap by the standards of the few guys who take a different direction. You have to look at rap overall, and the overall thing we see is that rappers talk about the streets, claiming it's storytelling and not genericism, they don't think of their bars in terms of imagery, subtle metaphors, tone. They think of their bars in terms of what rhymes next and how they can try and link it to the bar before, and when the bar before is about guns and shit, that's when they go down the same route as everyone else.

Correct. But you just as well can't hold ALL of rap by the standards of garbage radio rappers either. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's "good." If all your listening too is "pop" rap, then yeah, your point would be justified 10 fold. But most lyricists who consider themselves "artists" give a huge thumbs down to most radio rap. Most of it is repetitive and emotionless and honestly, a large majority of that junk sells because of the beat and not the lyrics. Or because it's a bandwagon rapper, and kids love to love shit their friends love, without knowing why they love it. Regardless, there ARE plenty of hip-hop artists out there who are more than willing and able to show their true lyrical ingenuity. They might not get the respect they deserve, but they're definitely out there and shouldn't be discredited just because it's exponentially harder for them to get themselves noticed. Unfortunately, it's not considered "cool" to be rollin' blunts and bumpin' some deep shit that you and your boys would actually benefit from thinking about.

Respect,
P.C

I wasn't specifically referring to "radio rappers". I mean even the likes of Vinny Paz and Immortal Technique. Mos Def and Lupe Fiasco were mentioned. The reason people notice them, and the reason they stand out, is BECAUSE they use these small little poetic techniques. That's their edge. The reason it makes them different, is because almost every other rapper, popular or not, doesn't use those kind of techniques.

EtH Doesn't Think Rap Isn't Poetry, He Thinks Not Enough People Use A Poetic And Artistic Approach.

2/10000000000000000000000000000000 means it isn't poetry to me, those guys just happen to use poetic techniques.

Your Still Beautiful Though, Be The Best You Can Be Jabroni :D

The audio topicals were bullshit nobody knew how to vote on them the concept doesn't transfer

^That was what I said when NOBLE mentioned it. It'd remain a contest of 'who the better rapper is'.

It's like the difference between reading a book and watching a movie. You can read in a book that a guy walks into a bar and comes across a midget. You sort of have to use your own imagination in conjunction with what the author has written to imagine how that guy and the midget look.
If you watched it on film, it would be a specific guy/actor, a specific midget, and a specific set...so it's less dependent on your imagination cause you're looking at it. That's sort of the difference between reading a topical and hearing it. Words sometimes vary in meaning depending on how they are conveyed. When reading a topical, you have to sub-vocalize it and even create the timing and pace on your own. No matter how beautiful the piece is or how well it is written, to a certain extent, you may be giving the author more credit than they are due because most of the picture that's formed comes from your own imagination.
When it is vocalized, you get that other dimension. You get more of a sense of the conviction behind the words. And yes, that would be something that voters would judge too, and I guess that's what you're trying to avoid. But in a way, it's actually more of a true measure of a topical writer/poet. Reading and vocalizing a topical out loud CAN translate well, but it might just take a bit more work on the part of both the writer as well as the audience.

Giving that "extra dimension" takes away a huge factor of poetry.. giving the reader the chance to use their imagination and actually think and interpret the material in their own way. You're just reading out a story in audio.

Really? I'm am not reading four pages of ur two disagreeing like a married couple

Eth has a point, but topicals can translate to audio just like regular battles do; you need to have the delivery as well as the content. Sure, someone might have a better story but not deliver it well and that'll cost them the battle; same as standard battling. You have to have that other aspect in your arsenal when partaking in any audio contest. The only real issue I think it poses is accent barriers (as seen with myself and IV in the first audio topical tourney).

@Askari, we need a national accent audio, you sheep shagging wank shaft.

Completely agree with Askari that it adds more elements. The difference between text battling and topicals to me, that makes a big difference here, is that I really classify topical makers as WRITERS. Telling a writer they aren't good enough because their audio delivery was bad would be harsh to me.

Yeah, text battles are rips of normal battling for people that don't wanna actually rap for whatever reasons, topicals are MEANT to be written, so why add in a "who has the better accent" element for something that was suppose to be read and show off writing skills

"Storytelling Tournament" would be a better classification of the audio topical tournament.