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  #11  
Unread 04-25-2021, 11:23 PM
Kiwi Peewee
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Ok, I think this is a fair issue to raise, but there are a number of questions involved, so I'm gonna go through my thoughts on each of them:

1. Did Odin make the right decision when voting?

In any battle, unless it's a DQ there is no correct person to vote for, and everyone can have their own opinion, which is why we have a voting system at all. That being said, I voted for ReVerT so obviously I disagree with Odin's vote here. A couple of other educated voters have felt the same way; so I think you could definitely say Odin made a questionable call.

2. Should Odin have voted on the battle?

As a general rule, we want everyone to vote on as many battles as they can, because that's the way for the website to work best. When one user specifically doesn't want someone voting on their battles, they can block them. Moderators and FVC members are exempt from being blocked because anyone that reaches the level of FVC or Mod is expected to be above the level of dropping biased or uneducated votes. Despite this, users that fall out with an FVC member or Mod have taken to demanding that that person stay off their battles (and typically messaging me about it at length). Although I think it is best practice that Mods and FVC members stay off of these people's battles where they can (I'm happy to explain why I think this if anyone disagrees), let me be clear that there is absolutely no obligation for staff or FVC not to vote on battles where battlers have requested they stay away. Especially in times of low activity like now, Mods are trying to do voting sweeps across as many open battles as we have time for, so I think Odin was completely entitled to vote on the battle.

3. Is there credible reason to believe Odin dropped a biased vote?

I think this question is the most important at stake. If the answer is yes, I don't think Odin should be a mod. However, I think you need a pretty high bar to show this. When considering if a vote might be biased, theres a lot of different factors to take into consideration: how clear the battle outcome is, how well-justified the vote is, the voter's other voting patterns, and the relationship between the voter and the battlers. I'm gonna go through each of these in turn.

a. The battle outcome: As I said earlier, I thought ReVerT won the battle which is reflected in my vote. I also didn't think it was a super-marginal call. That being said, I don't think it was a blowout, and since three out of the five voters had Evil Twin winning it, its obviously something different people saw different ways. In addition, Odin is someone who often votes in a different way to me, showing that we see battles in a different way. Therefore, I don't think you could say based off the battle that Odin made a biased vote.

b. The vote justification:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
This was actually a decent read here, props to both. Not going to break down bar for bar as there is already a lot of breakdowns already posted here by others. Would love to see another 16 from the two of you. Fairs in, gents.
I definitely don't think this is an ideal vote expo, particularly for a high profile match. However, saying "I agree with what previous voters have said" is something mods say pretty often when voting, because we can see all the other votes beforehand and there's not much point repeating what others have said. I think Odin should have said specifically which breakdown(s) he agreed with, but the vote justification, though low-effort, isn't particularly different to most mod votes. I don't think you could say Odin made a biased vote based on his vote justification.

c. Odin's voting patterns: If Odin had come back from weeks of inactivity to vote against ReVerT then vanish again, that would be compelling evidence to say this was a biased vote. However, that isn't at all what happened. Odin has dropped 11 votes in April, including 2 against ReVerT and 1 for him (not a clear pattern of hate voting). As far as the particular vote in question, he dropped a vote the day before, two other votes the same day, and another vote the day after, so it's not like he specifically sought out the battle to go and hate vote ReVerT. I don't think you could say Odin made a biased vote based on his voting patterns.

d. The relationship between Odin and Evil Twin: In his comments on the battle, ReVerT implies that Odin and Evil Twin are buddies. This is news to me, and I'm pretty sure it's news to Odin and Evil Twin too. I've literally never seen the two interact, and I think Evil Twin once complained to me that other staff members weren't taking him seriously which I can only assume meant Odin. I acknowledge this isn't the main thing in question, but for the sake of covering every base, I think it's clear Odin wasn't buddy voting for Evil Twin.

e. The relationship between Odin and ReVerT: This is the most credible part of the claim. I know that Odin doesn't like ReVerT, and ReVerT doesn't like Odin; I'm sure that's pretty clear to the rest of the site too. However, I don't necessarily think there was a proper 'beef' between them (before this at least). There are a shitload of people that don't like Odin, and equally many that he doesn't like, and I find it pretty dubious that ReVerT would be a high priority on that list, particularly given that Odin isn't spending a huge amount of time on LB recently anyway. ReVerT seems to be taking it pretty seriously; but the last time I voted against him he hit me up calling me ignorant and saying it was the worst vote he'd ever seen, then commented on a tourney battle predicting I would vote based on names instead of talent, then the next week hit me up saying that EtH was Evil Twin's buddy and asking for me to vote on the battle because he wanted someone who would 'drop a fair'. Basically, ReVerT has a history of being cool with people when they vote for him (as Odin did earlier this month) then claiming they're hate voters when they vote against him, which is why I don't think it's clear Odin was hate voting against ReVerT based on this accusation.

So overall, no I don't think there's a convincing case that Odin dropped a biased vote based on anything I can see here.

4. Should Kiwi kick Odin out of staff?

This one always cracks me up. I'm a moderator. Moderators don't have the power to control other moderators. We also don't have the ability to appoint new moderators, or to de-mod ourselves, or really to make any significant changes to the site. All we can do is make things run as smoothly as possible and put out fires (which is why it gets exasperating when all of LBs problems get blamed on us). Even if I could kick Odin I wouldn't, because although he's made some decisions I don't necessarily agree with, I don't think he's abused his power or anything like that.

@ReVerT I think you're justified in being upset that a mod voted differently to another mod + an FVC member, and if you have some sort of substantial evidence to back up what you're saying I'm willing to listen (that being said I'm extremely busy in my personal life at the moment so I'm unlikely to be able to respond quickly or in depth).
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Unread 04-25-2021, 11:23 PM   #11
 
Kiwi Peewee
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Ok, I think this is a fair issue to raise, but there are a number of questions involved, so I'm gonna go through my thoughts on each of them:

1. Did Odin make the right decision when voting?

In any battle, unless it's a DQ there is no correct person to vote for, and everyone can have their own opinion, which is why we have a voting system at all. That being said, I voted for ReVerT so obviously I disagree with Odin's vote here. A couple of other educated voters have felt the same way; so I think you could definitely say Odin made a questionable call.

2. Should Odin have voted on the battle?

As a general rule, we want everyone to vote on as many battles as they can, because that's the way for the website to work best. When one user specifically doesn't want someone voting on their battles, they can block them. Moderators and FVC members are exempt from being blocked because anyone that reaches the level of FVC or Mod is expected to be above the level of dropping biased or uneducated votes. Despite this, users that fall out with an FVC member or Mod have taken to demanding that that person stay off their battles (and typically messaging me about it at length). Although I think it is best practice that Mods and FVC members stay off of these people's battles where they can (I'm happy to explain why I think this if anyone disagrees), let me be clear that there is absolutely no obligation for staff or FVC not to vote on battles where battlers have requested they stay away. Especially in times of low activity like now, Mods are trying to do voting sweeps across as many open battles as we have time for, so I think Odin was completely entitled to vote on the battle.

3. Is there credible reason to believe Odin dropped a biased vote?

I think this question is the most important at stake. If the answer is yes, I don't think Odin should be a mod. However, I think you need a pretty high bar to show this. When considering if a vote might be biased, theres a lot of different factors to take into consideration: how clear the battle outcome is, how well-justified the vote is, the voter's other voting patterns, and the relationship between the voter and the battlers. I'm gonna go through each of these in turn.

a. The battle outcome: As I said earlier, I thought ReVerT won the battle which is reflected in my vote. I also didn't think it was a super-marginal call. That being said, I don't think it was a blowout, and since three out of the five voters had Evil Twin winning it, its obviously something different people saw different ways. In addition, Odin is someone who often votes in a different way to me, showing that we see battles in a different way. Therefore, I don't think you could say based off the battle that Odin made a biased vote.

b. The vote justification:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
This was actually a decent read here, props to both. Not going to break down bar for bar as there is already a lot of breakdowns already posted here by others. Would love to see another 16 from the two of you. Fairs in, gents.
I definitely don't think this is an ideal vote expo, particularly for a high profile match. However, saying "I agree with what previous voters have said" is something mods say pretty often when voting, because we can see all the other votes beforehand and there's not much point repeating what others have said. I think Odin should have said specifically which breakdown(s) he agreed with, but the vote justification, though low-effort, isn't particularly different to most mod votes. I don't think you could say Odin made a biased vote based on his vote justification.

c. Odin's voting patterns: If Odin had come back from weeks of inactivity to vote against ReVerT then vanish again, that would be compelling evidence to say this was a biased vote. However, that isn't at all what happened. Odin has dropped 11 votes in April, including 2 against ReVerT and 1 for him (not a clear pattern of hate voting). As far as the particular vote in question, he dropped a vote the day before, two other votes the same day, and another vote the day after, so it's not like he specifically sought out the battle to go and hate vote ReVerT. I don't think you could say Odin made a biased vote based on his voting patterns.

d. The relationship between Odin and Evil Twin: In his comments on the battle, ReVerT implies that Odin and Evil Twin are buddies. This is news to me, and I'm pretty sure it's news to Odin and Evil Twin too. I've literally never seen the two interact, and I think Evil Twin once complained to me that other staff members weren't taking him seriously which I can only assume meant Odin. I acknowledge this isn't the main thing in question, but for the sake of covering every base, I think it's clear Odin wasn't buddy voting for Evil Twin.

e. The relationship between Odin and ReVerT: This is the most credible part of the claim. I know that Odin doesn't like ReVerT, and ReVerT doesn't like Odin; I'm sure that's pretty clear to the rest of the site too. However, I don't necessarily think there was a proper 'beef' between them (before this at least). There are a shitload of people that don't like Odin, and equally many that he doesn't like, and I find it pretty dubious that ReVerT would be a high priority on that list, particularly given that Odin isn't spending a huge amount of time on LB recently anyway. ReVerT seems to be taking it pretty seriously; but the last time I voted against him he hit me up calling me ignorant and saying it was the worst vote he'd ever seen, then commented on a tourney battle predicting I would vote based on names instead of talent, then the next week hit me up saying that EtH was Evil Twin's buddy and asking for me to vote on the battle because he wanted someone who would 'drop a fair'. Basically, ReVerT has a history of being cool with people when they vote for him (as Odin did earlier this month) then claiming they're hate voters when they vote against him, which is why I don't think it's clear Odin was hate voting against ReVerT based on this accusation.

So overall, no I don't think there's a convincing case that Odin dropped a biased vote based on anything I can see here.

4. Should Kiwi kick Odin out of staff?

This one always cracks me up. I'm a moderator. Moderators don't have the power to control other moderators. We also don't have the ability to appoint new moderators, or to de-mod ourselves, or really to make any significant changes to the site. All we can do is make things run as smoothly as possible and put out fires (which is why it gets exasperating when all of LBs problems get blamed on us). Even if I could kick Odin I wouldn't, because although he's made some decisions I don't necessarily agree with, I don't think he's abused his power or anything like that.

@ReVerT I think you're justified in being upset that a mod voted differently to another mod + an FVC member, and if you have some sort of substantial evidence to back up what you're saying I'm willing to listen (that being said I'm extremely busy in my personal life at the moment so I'm unlikely to be able to respond quickly or in depth).
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  #12  
Unread 04-25-2021, 11:25 PM
Kiwi Peewee
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52 Won / 14 Lost
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tl;dr: there's no clear reason to believe Odin abused his powers so I'm not going to do anything.

I know that message is super-long and pretty clunky, I wanted to be very thorough because accusations against staff members are serious and I genuinely take things like this very seriously.
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Unread 04-25-2021, 11:25 PM   #12
 
Kiwi Peewee
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tl;dr: there's no clear reason to believe Odin abused his powers so I'm not going to do anything.

I know that message is super-long and pretty clunky, I wanted to be very thorough because accusations against staff members are serious and I genuinely take things like this very seriously.
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  #13  
Unread 04-26-2021, 01:34 AM
Illestro Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!
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Well, there you have it. I'm sure I don't need to state the obvious but this is definitely setting up a Revert/Odin showdown. I'm ready for it to happen.
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Unread 04-26-2021, 01:34 AM   #13
 
Illestro Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!
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Well, there you have it. I'm sure I don't need to state the obvious but this is definitely setting up a Revert/Odin showdown. I'm ready for it to happen.
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  #14  
Unread 04-26-2021, 02:39 AM
3V1L 3V1L is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!3V1L is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!
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@Kiwi Peewee

I still feel Odin should explain his vote. While (of course) I don't completely agree, i do 100% respect the amount of time and effort you put into this. For that reason alone, i will accept and drop the issue immediately. Outside of siding with me, this was the best case scenario. Complete respect to Kiwi for this!
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Unread 04-26-2021, 02:39 AM   #14
 
3V1L 3V1L is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!3V1L is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!
Estimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.43/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.18/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.18/10 stars
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215 Won / 76 Lost
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4 Won / 1 Lost
 
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@Kiwi Peewee

I still feel Odin should explain his vote. While (of course) I don't completely agree, i do 100% respect the amount of time and effort you put into this. For that reason alone, i will accept and drop the issue immediately. Outside of siding with me, this was the best case scenario. Complete respect to Kiwi for this!
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  #15  
Unread 04-26-2021, 04:37 AM
Kiwi Peewee
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52 Won / 14 Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReVerT View Post
@Kiwi Peewee

I still feel Odin should explain his vote. While (of course) I don't completely agree, i do 100% respect the amount of time and effort you put into this. For that reason alone, i will accept and drop the issue immediately. Outside of siding with me, this was the best case scenario. Complete respect to Kiwi for this!
Really appreciate an understanding response. I would also be interested to see Odin break down his vote, but idk how busy he is or anything else.
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Unread 04-26-2021, 04:37 AM   #15
 
Kiwi Peewee
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52 Won / 14 Lost
Exclusive Text Record
1 Won / 0 Lost
 
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Voted: 41 audio / 703 text
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReVerT View Post
@Kiwi Peewee

I still feel Odin should explain his vote. While (of course) I don't completely agree, i do 100% respect the amount of time and effort you put into this. For that reason alone, i will accept and drop the issue immediately. Outside of siding with me, this was the best case scenario. Complete respect to Kiwi for this!
Really appreciate an understanding response. I would also be interested to see Odin break down his vote, but idk how busy he is or anything else.
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  #16  
Unread 04-26-2021, 07:28 AM
EtH
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1 Won / 0 Lost
Estimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 stars
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8 Won / 4 Lost
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It's almost like being a moderator has nothing to do with battle or judging ability so the VP shouldn't be higher.

No one runs the site anymore and you guys still wont make the obvious changes
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Unread 04-26-2021, 07:28 AM   #16
 
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1 Won / 0 Lost
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It's almost like being a moderator has nothing to do with battle or judging ability so the VP shouldn't be higher.

No one runs the site anymore and you guys still wont make the obvious changes
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  #17  
Unread 04-26-2021, 08:09 AM
Kiwi Peewee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champion EtH View Post
It's almost like being a moderator has nothing to do with battle or judging ability so the VP shouldn't be higher.
In theory I think this is true but in practice not really. The FVC has functioned as a bit of a feeder group for staff for years. That being said, I have supported lowering staff VP in the past and we did go through this months ago and most staff voluntarily lowered their own VP.
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Unread 04-26-2021, 08:09 AM   #17
 
Kiwi Peewee
Estimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 0/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.1/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.1/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.1/10 stars
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Originally Posted by Champion EtH View Post
It's almost like being a moderator has nothing to do with battle or judging ability so the VP shouldn't be higher.
In theory I think this is true but in practice not really. The FVC has functioned as a bit of a feeder group for staff for years. That being said, I have supported lowering staff VP in the past and we did go through this months ago and most staff voluntarily lowered their own VP.
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  #18  
Unread 04-26-2021, 09:01 AM
EtH
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Estimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.9/10 stars
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1 Won / 0 Lost
Estimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 stars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Peewee View Post
In theory I think this is true but in practice not really. The FVC has functioned as a bit of a feeder group for staff for years. That being said, I have supported lowering staff VP in the past and we did go through this months ago and most staff voluntarily lowered their own VP.
Then just make it mandatory?
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Unread 04-26-2021, 09:01 AM   #18
 
EtH
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Estimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.9/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 7.2/10 stars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Peewee View Post
In theory I think this is true but in practice not really. The FVC has functioned as a bit of a feeder group for staff for years. That being said, I have supported lowering staff VP in the past and we did go through this months ago and most staff voluntarily lowered their own VP.
Then just make it mandatory?
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  #19  
Unread 04-26-2021, 11:03 AM
Illestro Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!
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Nobody runs the site anymore?
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Unread 04-26-2021, 11:03 AM   #19
 
Illestro Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!Illestro is on FIRE! 10+ wins in a row!
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  #20  
Unread 04-26-2021, 04:48 PM
The Saaxxx Baba
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Estimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 stars
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2 Won / 1 Lost
Estimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 stars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Peewee View Post
ReVerT seems to be taking it pretty seriously; but the last time I voted against him he hit me up calling me ignorant and saying it was the worst vote he'd ever seen, then commented on a tourney battle predicting I would vote based on names instead of talent, then the next week hit me up saying that EtH was Evil Twin's buddy and asking for me to vote on the battle because he wanted someone who would 'drop a fair'. Basically, ReVerT has a history of being cool with people when they vote for him (as Odin did earlier this month) then claiming they're hate voters when they vote against him, which is why I don't think it's clear Odin was hate voting against ReVerT based on this accusation.
This.
#Bodied
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Unread 04-26-2021, 04:48 PM   #20
 
The Saaxxx Baba
Estimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Audio: 6.73/10 stars
Ranked Audio Record
2 Won / 1 Lost
Estimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.73/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 starsEstimated Skill in Text: 6.27/10 stars
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118 Won / 48 Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Peewee View Post
ReVerT seems to be taking it pretty seriously; but the last time I voted against him he hit me up calling me ignorant and saying it was the worst vote he'd ever seen, then commented on a tourney battle predicting I would vote based on names instead of talent, then the next week hit me up saying that EtH was Evil Twin's buddy and asking for me to vote on the battle because he wanted someone who would 'drop a fair'. Basically, ReVerT has a history of being cool with people when they vote for him (as Odin did earlier this month) then claiming they're hate voters when they vote against him, which is why I don't think it's clear Odin was hate voting against ReVerT based on this accusation.
This.
#Bodied
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