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Originally Posted by Lyve SCIENCE
I'd have to vehemently disagree Berbers were black. I've studied at Islamic centers and the conquest of North Africa and Europe is quite detailed and historically accurate.
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I didn't say Berbers were black. I compared them to Latinos and said they look more black or more Arab depending on which region they are from, and then I pointed out examples of Berber or Tuareg people who phenotypically would be considered black.
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Originally Posted by Lyve SCIENCE
Not to mention there's depictions of ancient Berbers that Egyptians made thousands of years ago showing the 4 types of man. Berbers were white according to Ancient Egyptian accounts.
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I am familiar with the wall painting you are probably referring to. The Book of Gates in the tomb of Seti I. However, all the versions showing Caucasian-looking figures are reconstructions. The actual original tomb painting itself is so damaged and with faded colors that the figures could be interpreted to have looked otherwise when they were originally painted. Also, they were depicting a Libyan, not necessarily a Berber. Then, as is the case now, not all Libyans looked the same. North Africa had been invaded by Mediterranean Europeans (Romans) and also Phoenicians, but the Berbers are indigenous to North Africa and didn't come from elsewhere. White people may have been present in ancient North Africa, but they are not indigenous to it and they are not Berbers. Even if the image was meant to depict a Berber from Libya, I've already said "A Tuareg from Burkina Faso looks a lot different than one from Libya." A Berber from Libya looking "white" is not indicative of how all Berbers from other regions look.
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Originally Posted by Lyve SCIENCE
Berbers were darkened by Arab expansion. Also Arabs are Semitic, like Sephardic Jews . Not African. Any Africans claiming to be Arab would be due to Arab expansionism. The Moors were also a Muslim Kingdom. And 100% Muslim.
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I don't really like or subscribe to the term "Semitic" for describing people, maybe because it's based on the Bible, which I consider largely a myth. It comes from the sons of Noah (Ham, Shem, and Japhet) who are supposed to be the progenitors of the Hamites (Africans near the Levant--Egyptians, Ethiopians, etc.), Semites, and (no one really knows who Japhet is supposed to be the father of but I've heard people say Caucasian and some say east Asians). It doesn't account for Australian Aborigines or Polynesians, for example. It's how ancient Middle Easterners tried to explain the world around them, and their world was very small because there was so much they were unaware of. Truthfully, most of the people I've met who are self-described Jews, I would consider white...and I don't consider Arabs to be white. So "Semitic" as a term inclusive of both those people (European Jews and Middle Eastern Arabs) is inadequate to me because I consider them distinct. As a caveat, maybe because I'm such a PC Liberal (lol), I respect people's right to identify however they choose to, so it doesn't really matter what I think of the term "Semitic..." or who is white or who is black. If someone identifies as such, I will respect that and address them as such. Race, at the end of the day, is really an arbitrary social convention. What would pass for white or black to me could be different from what would pass as such for you. I'm not interested in forcing labels on anyone and I'd rather let them speak for themselves. All the Tuareg people I've personally met identified as black, if they used such terms, but I'm pretty sure there are also Tuareg people who identify as white. Who am I to tell them any different?
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Originally Posted by Lyve SCIENCE
The reason, once again why Moors were veiewed as black is simple, because black Moors, recent converts to Islam reconquered parts of Europe when the moderate muslim empire collapsed. I've taken many college courses that dealt with the occupation of Spain. It's a gigantic misconception Moors were black. There were black Moors tho.
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If there were black Moors, it isn't a "gigantic" misconception that the Moors were black.
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Originally Posted by Lyve SCIENCE
"A marabout (Arabic: مُرابِط, translit. murābiṭ, lit. 'one who is attached/garrisoned') is a Muslim religious leader and teacher in West Africa, and (historically) in the Maghreb. The marabout is often a scholar of the Qur'an, or religious teacher.
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[/COLOR]"Moor, in English usage, a Moroccan or, formerly, a member of the Muslim population of what is now Spain and Portugal. Of mixed Arab, Spanish, and Amazigh (Berber) origins, the Moors created the Arab Andalusian civilization and subsequently settled as refugees in North Africa between the 11th and 17th centuries."
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"The term "Moors" refers primarily to the Muslim inhabitants of the Maghreb, the Iberian Peninsula, Sicily, and Malta during the Middle Ages. The Moors initially were the Berber autochthones of the Maghreb.[1] The name was later also applied to Arabs.[2][3]
Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people,[4] and the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica observed that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value."[5] Medieval and early modern Europeans variously applied the name to Arabs, North African Berbers, and Muslim Europeans"
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The Egyptian Book of Gates is around 3 or 4 thousand years old and depicts Berbers (Libyans) as white. Find an older more reliable source and I'll believe you Berbers were black.
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There's only so much one can learn from Wikipedia entries. I have personally studied under Marabout and Sufi sheikhs. I've studied with sheikhs from the Tajani, Qadiri and Naqshabandi orders. The Sufis, like the Marabouts, are often considered heretics in the eyes or orthodox Muslims.