[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Shodan

In this post, I will assume that reality exists externally and independently of any mind (including my own) - that is, non-solipsistically. If we were to assume otherwise then this would go nowhere.

Near as I can tell, your logic here is based on the incorrect concept that objects can be objectively placed into an abstract category of something. They cannot. Such a mentality is extremely reminiscent of the ideas of the ancient Greeks, who either said that everything is composed of indivisible chunks of object, or - in the case of the early atomists - that it was composed of miniscule particles of object. This is a very human and apparently sensible way of thinking about things but it has nothing to do with reality.

The universe is composed of one or more types of "building blocks," that is, the fundamental composition of reality. Right now, that would appear to be strings, but we don't know for certain. Everything in the universe, everything under everything and everything over everything, is composed of building blocks of some sort. So when we see an object, we aren't seeing an abstract object with specific properties (abstract or otherwise) that objectively exists; rather, we are seeing a configuration of these building blocks that meets certain conditions, and then assigning it the property of being that object. The strings, atoms, molecules, etc. that make up a ship are not themselves chunks of ship - rather, they are particles with certain properties, existing mostly independently of one another, that happen to be in the right points in space and time.

It is the same thing that causes you to be able to read this message. All that actually exists here are electronic signals in various computers being processed and transferred around, as well as photons from the monitor entering your eye so that you can process them. Even the very act of computers processing this message is just particles, charges, and building blocks moving around by interacting with one another. None of this message has any meaning until you process it and assign it a meaning. So, while the signals that make up this message objectively exist, the fact that it is a message, as well as any meaning derived from it, only exist subjectively inside of your mind.

It is also the same reason why it is so difficult to make a computer learn to recognize images. While your brain is hardwired to make abstractions and see abstract objects and categories of such with similarly abstract properties, a computer algorithm sees what is really there - bits, bytes, and pixels - but doesn't have the abstraction capabilities of a human.

With all of this in mind (and I hope I've stated my argument clearly enough to be understood - my writing has never been particularly easy to grasp), it should be obvious that nothing is definable as a "ship" unless the person observing the conglomeration of things existing in the universe decides that it is a ship.

There are no, and indeed cannot be, any completely accurate and objective criteria for determining what is and is not a ship, as the concept of a "ship" is made up by humans - is a ship a superset of the other types of ships? Is a corsair a ship? What about a large fish? What if you hollowed out a giant pumpkin and went downstream in it? Therefore, for any practical purpose, it makes sense to say that the museum is not in possession of the Ship of Theseus, as they do not possess what I, or most people, would define as a ship.

tl;dr: because 1. the universe doesn't care about human abstractions and 2. I think that what the museum has isn't a ship while what the crew is sailing is.

I'm not sure where you are getting at with saying my "logic here is based on the incorrect concept that objects can be objectively placed into an abstract category of something." To refer to a ship or any other thing, is that not based on the concept that objects can be objectively placed in a category? Your earlier statement seemed to suggest that the aluminium ship that is being sailed is definable as a ship while the one in the museum is not. Now you are saying that nothing is (objectively) definable as a ship since ships are made up by humans. You seem to contradict yourself though. When you say that you assume reality exists externally and independently of your mind or any observer, that sounds like an argument for objectivity. So objectivity exists, but nothing is objectively definable? Then how do you know objectivity exists? I wasn't aware that most people wouldn't define the ship in the museum as a ship, and that is what I was trying to find out when I asked why the one in the water would be more definable as a ship rather than the one in the museum. If your answer had been something like "because it is the one being sailed, ships are objects which are sailed," for example, it would have opened up a new set of problems. I probably would have asked if the aluminium ship was still a ship while it was docked and not being sailed. The "ship" in the museum could still be sailed if it were placed in the water. Is its not being "definable" as a ship then solely because it is not being used as such? Is it safe to assume your final answer is to say "there is no Ship of Theseus and there never has been because ships cannot be objectively defined?"

[NOBLE]

Originally Posted by Shodan

In this post, I will assume that reality exists externally and independently of any mind (including my own) - that is, non-solipsistically. If we were to assume otherwise then this would go nowhere.

Near as I can tell, your logic here is based on the incorrect concept that objects can be objectively placed into an abstract category of something. They cannot. Such a mentality is extremely reminiscent of the ideas of the ancient Greeks, who either said that everything is composed of indivisible chunks of object, or - in the case of the early atomists - that it was composed of miniscule particles of object. This is a very human and apparently sensible way of thinking about things but it has nothing to do with reality.

The universe is composed of one or more types of "building blocks," that is, the fundamental composition of reality. Right now, that would appear to be strings, but we don't know for certain. Everything in the universe, everything under everything and everything over everything, is composed of building blocks of some sort. So when we see an object, we aren't seeing an abstract object with specific properties (abstract or otherwise) that objectively exists; rather, we are seeing a configuration of these building blocks that meets certain conditions, and then assigning it the property of being that object. The strings, atoms, molecules, etc. that make up a ship are not themselves chunks of ship - rather, they are particles with certain properties, existing mostly independently of one another, that happen to be in the right points in space and time.

It is the same thing that causes you to be able to read this message. All that actually exists here are electronic signals in various computers being processed and transferred around, as well as photons from the monitor entering your eye so that you can process them. Even the very act of computers processing this message is just particles, charges, and building blocks moving around by interacting with one another. None of this message has any meaning until you process it and assign it a meaning. So, while the signals that make up this message objectively exist, the fact that it is a message, as well as any meaning derived from it, only exist subjectively inside of your mind.

It is also the same reason why it is so difficult to make a computer learn to recognize images. While your brain is hardwired to make abstractions and see abstract objects and categories of such with similarly abstract properties, a computer algorithm sees what is really there - bits, bytes, and pixels - but doesn't have the abstraction capabilities of a human.

With all of this in mind (and I hope I've stated my argument clearly enough to be understood - my writing has never been particularly easy to grasp), it should be obvious that nothing is definable as a "ship" unless the person observing the conglomeration of things existing in the universe decides that it is a ship.

There are no, and indeed cannot be, any completely accurate and objective criteria for determining what is and is not a ship, as the concept of a "ship" is made up by humans - is a ship a superset of the other types of ships? Is a corsair a ship? What about a large fish? What if you hollowed out a giant pumpkin and went downstream in it? Therefore, for any practical purpose, it makes sense to say that the museum is not in possession of the Ship of Theseus, as they do not possess what I, or most people, would define as a ship.

tl;dr: because 1. the universe doesn't care about human abstractions and 2. I think that what the museum has isn't a ship while what the crew is sailing is.

I'm not sure where you are getting at with saying my "logic here is based on the incorrect concept that objects can be objectively placed into an abstract category of something." To refer to a ship or any other thing, is that not based on the concept that objects can be objectively placed in a category? Your earlier statement seemed to suggest that the aluminium ship that is being sailed is definable as a ship while the one in the museum is not. Now you are saying that nothing is (objectively) definable as a ship since ships are made up by humans. You seem to contradict yourself though. When you say that you assume reality exists externally and independently of your mind or any observer, that sounds like an argument for objectivity. So objectivity exists, but nothing is objectively definable? Then how do you know objectivity exists? I wasn't aware that most people wouldn't define the ship in the museum as a ship, and that is what I was trying to find out when I asked why the one in the water would be more definable as a ship rather than the one in the museum. If your answer had been something like "because it is the one being sailed, ships are objects which are sailed," for example, it would have opened up a new set of problems. I probably would have asked if the aluminium ship was still a ship while it was docked and not being sailed. The "ship" in the museum could still be sailed if it were placed in the water. Is its not being "definable" as a ship then solely because it is not being used as such? Is it safe to assume your final answer is to say "there is no Ship of Theseus and there never has been because ships cannot be objectively defined?"