View Full Version : Nobles and Savages: Sun God's Riddle
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 07:39 PM
This is an exercise in logical thinking. Assume the following story is true:
You are the sole survivor of a shipwreck and are drifting in a small raft parallel to the coast of an island. You know that on this island there are only two tribes of natives: Nobles, kind folk who always tell the truth, and Savages, cannibals who always lie. Naturally, you want to find refuge with the Nobles. You see a man standing on the shore and call out, "Are you a Noble or a Savage?" The man answers the question, but a wave breaks on the beach at that very moment, so you don't hear the reply. The boat drifts farther down along the shore when you see another man. You ask him the same question, and he replies, pointing to the first man, "He said he was a Noble." Then he continues, "I am a Noble." Your boat drifts farther down the shore where you see a third man. You ask him the same question. The man seems very friendly as he calls out, "They are both liars. I am a Noble. They are Savages."
Based on the information that is given, 1)Which tribe does each man belong to? And 2) How do you know?
Shodan
06-22-2014, 07:43 PM
You ask one which tribe the other one would say he belongs to. The person you are asking about is a member of the other tribe.
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For example:
You ask a person if the other person would say that they are a noble. If the person you are asking is a noble, he will truthfully say that the other person would say he is a noble, so that other person is a savage. If you ask a savage, he will untruthfully say the other person would say they are a savage, so the other person is a noble.
Easy one really.
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 07:44 PM
You ask one which tribe the other one belongs to. The person you ask him about is a member of the tribe the person you asked says he is not a member of.
No. You come across three men successively on an island. You ask each one which tribe they personally belong to, not about the other men.
Shodan
06-22-2014, 07:45 PM
Sun God
Lol I misread the riddle because I immediately recognized it as a variation of one I've seen a million fucking times. I'll try to resolve it later.
Enfinite
06-22-2014, 07:51 PM
The whole concept is a trick right? Nobles and Savages. One tells the truth and the other lies, I find that's all extra info designed to trick us. I don't personally believe any of that info is relevant, the real focus should be on the the "Cannibal" issue.
If there's a tribe of cannibals what do they eat? Humans. Wouldn't a Cannibal be more interested in the other two standing on an island rather then the person floating on a raft? Which means all three are Nobles, or all three are savages. But since the third one called the other two out, I think all three are savages trying to trick you to come on shore :D
I may be wrong, that's how I see it.
Well, logically, if the third man were further down the coast than the second, the likelihood of his hearing him, and my not doing so is slim. Thus implying, that the third is therefore lying, and must be the savage. This means, then, that the second, because he was closer to the first man, and went out of the way to remark on the first man, positively. He must therefore be a noble. Also, as the second man did not remark that the first was a savage, despite the first's answer that he was a noble, the first must be a noble as well.
I eat all three. Im a fucking savage.
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 08:09 PM
The whole concept is a trick right? Nobles and Savages. One tells the truth and the other lies, I find that's all extra info designed to trick us. I don't personally believe any of that info is relevant, the real focus should be on the the "Cannibal" issue.
If there's a tribe of cannibals what do they eat? Humans. Wouldn't a Cannibal be more interested in the other two standing on an island rather then the person floating on a raft? Which means all three are Nobles, or all three are savages. But since the third one called the other two out, I think all three are savages trying to trick you to come on shore :D
I may be wrong, that's how I see it.
All three couldn't possibly be the same tribe for the simple fact that they contradict each other. The third man said "they are both liars." That doesn't mean he's telling the truth either but obviously someone is lying since they are saying different things. Given the fact that Nobles always tell the truth and Savages always lie, these men are of different tribes and can't possibly all be of the same tribe. As far as the cannibal issue, they would probably be even more interested in an unsuspecting human on a raft as opposed to island cohabitants who are already aware of their ways. It's all about easy prey.
Enfinite
06-22-2014, 08:15 PM
Well, logically, if the third man were further down the coast than the second, the likelihood of his hearing him, and my not doing so is slim. Thus implying, that the third is therefore lying, and must be the savage. This means, then, that the second, because he was closer to the first man, and went out of the way to remark on the first man, positively. He must therefore be a noble. Also, as the second man did not remark that the first was a savage, despite the first's answer that he was a noble, the first must be a noble as well.
You could also say the complete flip. The third man might have been too far to hear the first, but he may have heard the second make the remark about the first, and the claim the second made about being a noble. The third man can very well be a noble, and the first two savages.
And you did say the third man answered friendly. Where there was no context of how the first two answered. Since Nobles are kind you could assume the third one was truly a noble lol. I dunno.
If the 3rd man is telling the truth than the second man is lying about himself, not noble. th esecond man is also lying about what the first man said so the first man said he was not noble.
no one will ever say they are not noble, because you will either tell the truth, noble. or lie about not being not noble. Noble.
The 2nd man has to be lying. so if he is lying he is not noble, he is also lying about the first man being noble.
the 3rd man is telling the truth. I would eat him.
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 08:19 PM
You could also say the complete flip. The third man might have been too far to hear the first, but he may have heard the second make the remark about the first, and the claim the second made about being a noble. The third man can very well be a noble, and the first two savages.
I'm not arguing who's a Noble and who's a Savage yet. You're right...it could be either combination (until we apply logic), but my argument is they're not all of the same tribe.
just realized a flaw in my thinking.
:grass:You could also say the complete flip. The third man might have been too far to hear the first, but he may have heard the second make the remark about the first, and the claim the second made about being a noble. The third man can very well be a noble, and the first two savages.
And you did say the third man answered friendly. Where there was no context of how the first two answered. Since Nobles are kind you could assume the third one was truly a noble lol. I dunno.
"He said he was a noble." was the remark. Not that he WAS a noble.
if savages always lie, and nobles always tell the truth than the first person had to say 'im a noble' because no one would ever claim to be a savage. That means the second guy is also telling the truth, he said hes a noble, I am also a noble. Therefore the 3rd man is lying. I would still eat him.
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 08:28 PM
If the 3rd man is telling the truth than the second man is lying about himself, not noble. th esecond man is also lying about what the first man said so the first man said he was not noble.
no one will ever say they are not noble, because you will either tell the truth, noble. or lie about not being not noble. Noble.
The 2nd man has to be lying. so if he is lying he is not noble, he is also lying about the first man being noble.
the 3rd man is telling the truth. I would eat him.
Why do you say the second man has to be lying?
---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------
if savages always lie, and nobles always tell the truth than the first person had to say 'im a noble' because no one would ever claim to be a savage. That means the second guy is also telling the truth, he said hes a noble, I am also a noble. Therefore the 3rd man is lying. I would still eat him.
Good thinking!
revised
---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------
Thank you, now if you could make me an "LBs Smartest" tag we would be even steven.
---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------
not gonna lie though, I made a lil stick figure island drawing to help me work through this.
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 08:32 PM
revised
---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------
Thank you, now if you could make me an "LBs Smartest" tag we would be even steven.
---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------
not gonna lie though, I made a lil stick figure island drawing to help me work through this.
I can make the tag, but someone else will have to install it.
---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------
all 3 are savages.
Why do you say that?
revised
---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------
Thank you, now if you could make me an "LBs Smartest" tag we would be even steven.
---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 PM ----------
not gonna lie though, I made a lil stick figure island drawing to help me work through this.
I still do not understand how my obscure thinking led me to the logical answer.
Deal
RULE (obviously savage)
---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 PM ----------
I still do not understand how my obscure thinking led me to the logical answer.
Well BLNK, thats whats called a gut instinct. Apparently the size of the gut correlates to the size of the instinct.
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 08:37 PM
^^^LOL!
Babylon
06-22-2014, 08:50 PM
This is an exercise in logical thinking. Assume the following story is true:
You are the sole survivor of a shipwreck and are drifting in a small raft parallel to the coast of an island. You know that on this island there are only two tribes of natives: Nobles, kind folk who always tell the truth, and Savages, cannibals who always lie. Naturally, you want to find refuge with the Nobles. You see a man standing on the shore and call out, "Are you a Noble or a Savage?" The man answers the question, but a wave breaks on the beach at that very moment, so you don't hear the reply. The boat drifts farther down along the shore when you see another man. You ask him the same question, and he replies, pointing to the first man, "He said he was a Noble." Then he continues, "I am a Noble." Your boat drifts farther down the shore where you see a third man. You ask him the same question. The man seems very friendly as he calls out, "They are both liars. I am a Noble. They are Savages."
Based on the information that is given, 1)Which tribe does each man belong to? And 2) How do you know?
Well obviously a savage won't say that they are a savage, for one: It is stated that they always lie. And two: Since the story tells you that you have the predisposition to join the Nobles it's obvious that the savages know that they aren't the favored tribe.
[From the logical standpoint]
I'm saying it's villager two, as the first villager couldn't be heard, but we can just assume that he said he was a Noble based upon the fact that villager three said that the two were lying, and that he was the only noble (Which doesn't mean that it true, it only states that they both in fact said that they were Nobles). So, so far the only one of them to tell the truth would be villager two, as villager three confirmed that villager one indeed did say that he was a Noble, and villager two specifically stated that villager one said he was a Noble. This means that villager two told the truth, and since savages "always" lie, villager two is the logical choice.
I'd like to know if/how I'm wrong, btw OP.
EDIT: Fuck you guys, I started typing when like no one had replied. Went to get some chips, posted, and now there's three pages.
Hubert Cumberdale
06-22-2014, 08:50 PM
The first person HAD to say he was a noble. If a noble is telling the truth, he says he's a noble. If a savage is lying, he says he's a noble)
Person 1: "I'm a noble"
Person 2: "He said he was a noble, I'm a noble too" - (True. Can't be lying, because the first person DID say he was a noble, and savages always lie).
Person 3: "They are both lying, I'm a noble" - (They can't both be lying. The first guy had to say he was a noble, so the second guy was telling the truth about what he said.
Ergo...
Person 1 = Savage
Person 2 = Noble
Person 3 = Savage
This reminds me of the guardians of the doors riddle.
It also reminds me slightly of binary code.
EDIT: Person 1 = Unknown
how the fuck can I explain it and people are still getting it wrong?
NOBLE
06-22-2014, 09:05 PM
Well obviously a savage won't say that they are a savage, for one: It is stated that they always lie. And two: Since the story tells you that you have the predisposition to join the Nobles it's obvious that the savages know that they aren't the favored tribe.
[From the logical standpoint]
I'm saying it's villager two, as the first villager couldn't be heard, but we can just assume that he said he was a Noble based upon the fact that villager three said that the two were lying, and that he was the only noble (Which doesn't mean that it true, it only states that they both in fact said that they were Nobles). So, so far the only one of them to tell the truth would be villager two, as villager three confirmed that villager one indeed did say that he was a Noble, and villager two specifically stated that villager one said he was a Noble. This means that villager two told the truth, and since savages "always" lie, villager two is the logical choice.
I'd like to know if/how I'm wrong, btw OP.
EDIT: Fuck you guys, I started typing when like no one had replied. Went to get some chips, posted, and now there's three pages.
You're right that villager 2 is a Noble, but I don't understand your line of thinking. The first villager couldn't be heard by you...that doesn't mean he couldn't be heard by the other two who were standing on the island with him. Villager 3 said the two were lying, but that doesn't necessarily confirm that villager 1 did indeed respond that he was a Noble. He could be flat out lying, but you don't know because you didn't hear it (and maybe neither did he).
Iron Mike
06-22-2014, 09:07 PM
^^^Oops...wrong account
Supsie
06-22-2014, 09:11 PM
I agree with what Barfight said, but if these guys are living on a island do they even speak a English? also maybe you would be able to tell just by looking at them i don't think a noble will have skulls and bones decorated all over his body like the cannibals.
Supsie
06-22-2014, 09:16 PM
Barfight yea every one loves it
Hubert Cumberdale
06-22-2014, 09:21 PM
Ask "What tribe does the other guy belong to". If they don't know the other guy...
Ask "Which direct would the other tribe send me in".
ILLoKWENT
06-22-2014, 10:07 PM
Based on daves logic.. its safe to say without a doubt that villager two is noble. because the obvious reply from everyone on that island is that they are nobles.. and if villager two always lies.. he wouldve said the first villager yelled out that he(first villager) was a savage..which would contradict an absolute truth... EVERYONE ON THE ISLAND WOULD SAY THEY ARE NOBLES...regardless of tribe afilliation..so from that i determine vil2 is noble.. vil3 savage. Vil1 noble...
Hubert Cumberdale
06-22-2014, 10:23 PM
Tbh I'm starting to think Sun God is noble.
ViTRiOL
06-22-2014, 11:06 PM
Based on the information given (Savages always lie, Nobles always tell the truth):
Savages: When asked the question will always say, "I am a Noble."
Noble: When asked the question will always say, "I am a Noble."
First man: ...
Second man: He said he's a noble. I'm a noble.
Third man: They're both lying. I am a noble.
Let's hypothesise, had the first man said "I am a Noble." then the second man must be a Noble as Nobles always tell the truth, he would have to truthfully tell you what the man had said and henceforth truthfully revealed his identity. If the second man was a savage in this instance, by proxy he would have to say "He said he's a savage. I'm a Noble." The first man couldn't have said "I am a Savage." as this statement is impossible to conceive in this circumstance (which means there is no platform for a Savage to overhear the first man and say the aforementioned statement), for Nobles always tell the truth and Savages always lie.
So we now know that the first man said "I am a Noble." which, on the face of it, could be a lie or a truthful statement. Since we know that the second man is unequivocally a Noble, we know that the third man must be a savage seeing as he claims that the second man is lying, which we know to be untrue.
Henceforth, here is the full conclusion:
First man: I am a Noble. (Neutral)
Second man: He said he's a Noble. I am a Noble. (Noble)
Third man: They are both lying. I am a Noble. (Savage)
This answers our question. The third man is a Savage, so his claim that both are lying must be a lie. He therefore validates the first man's claim that he is indeed a Noble.
Answer:
First man: Noble
Second man: Noble
Third man: Savage
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Dave
First man is definitely a Noble, look again.
ViTRiOL should be banned for biting my shit
ViTRiOL
06-22-2014, 11:16 PM
ViTRiOL should be banned for biting my shit
I don't bite anyone, I am a Noble.
Touche....I don't know how to make that little e shit.
ViTRiOL
06-22-2014, 11:21 PM
Touche....I don't know how to make that little e shit.
CTRL + ALT + E = é
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Now who can tell me what word has every vowel in it... in alphabetical order?
Enfinite
06-22-2014, 11:28 PM
I think this is Nobles conceited game to get us to say his name a bunch.
ViTRiOL
06-22-2014, 11:32 PM
I think this is Nobles conceited game to get us to say his name a bunch.
@-Savage- must be in on it too...
ILLoKWENT
06-22-2014, 11:33 PM
CTRL + ALT + E = é
---------- Post added at 04:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 AM ----------
Now who can tell me what word has every vowel in it... in alphabetical order?
Facetious....among several others
ViTRiOL
06-22-2014, 11:39 PM
Facetious....among several others
Go on...
ILLoKWENT
06-22-2014, 11:56 PM
Abstemious... is the other more common word.. a couple others are more obscure and isnt relavent to normal everyday convo..
Shodan
06-23-2014, 12:03 AM
ViTRiOL
Facetious comes to mind
Iron Mike
06-23-2014, 12:19 AM
Based on the information given (Savages always lie, Nobles always tell the truth):
Savages: When asked the question will always say, "I am a Noble."
Noble: When asked the question will always say, "I am a Noble."
First man: ...
Second man: He said he's a noble. I'm a noble.
Third man: They're both lying. I am a noble.
Let's hypothesise, had the first man said "I am a Noble." then the second man must be a Noble as Nobles always tell the truth, he would have to truthfully tell you what the man had said and henceforth truthfully revealed his identity. If the second man was a savage in this instance, by proxy he would have to say "He said he's a savage. I'm a Noble." The first man couldn't have said "I am a Savage." as this statement is impossible to conceive in this circumstance (which means there is no platform for a Savage to overhear the first man and say the aforementioned statement), for Nobles always tell the truth and Savages always lie.
So we now know that the first man said "I am a Noble." which, on the face of it, could be a lie or a truthful statement. Since we know that the second man is unequivocally a Noble, we know that the third man must be a savage seeing as he claims that the second man is lying, which we know to be untrue.
Henceforth, here is the full conclusion:
First man: I am a Noble. (Neutral)
Second man: He said he's a Noble. I am a Noble. (Noble)
Third man: They are both lying. I am a Noble. (Savage)
This answers our question. The third man is a Savage, so his claim that both are lying must be a lie. He therefore validates the first man's claim that he is indeed a Noble.
Answer:
First man: Noble
Second man: Noble
Third man: Savage
---------- Post added at 04:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 AM ----------
Dave
First man is definitely a Noble, look again.
Smart man!
I think this is Nobles conceited game to get us to say his name a bunch.
Seriously?
Hubert Cumberdale
06-23-2014, 12:45 AM
ViTRiOL, I don't get how you're concluding that the first man is noble. The third guy claimed they were both lying. BOTH of them might not have been lying. Perhaps only one was lying (The first one).
Also, the second guy only agreed that the first guy SAID he was noble, not that he actually was.
There is no possible way to conclude what the first man's position is.
ViTRiOL
06-23-2014, 01:19 AM
Yay! What do I win? I'll link you my Paypal account and I shall expect £3,000 by sunrise.
---------- Post added at 05:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 AM ----------
ViTRiOL, I don't get how you're concluding that the first man is noble. The third guy claimed they were both lying. BOTH of them might not have been lying. Perhaps only one was lying (The first one).
Also, the second guy only agreed that the first guy SAID he was noble, not that he actually was.
There is no possible way to conclude what the first man's position is.
Savages only tell lies. We're determined that the third man is a savage.
"Both are lying," (in Savage perspective) = "Both are telling the truth."
---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 AM ----------
The third man's Savage lie validates the first man's Noble claim.
---------- Post added at 06:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 AM ----------
So to put it blatantly.
If the the third man was a Noble, the first two would HAVE to be Savages.
Surely that's understandable now?
Hubert Cumberdale
06-23-2014, 10:19 AM
Yay! What do I win? I'll link you my Paypal account and I shall expect £3,000 by sunrise.
---------- Post added at 05:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 AM ----------
Savages only tell lies. We're determined that the third man is a savage.
"Both are lying," (in Savage perspective) = "Both are telling the truth."
---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 AM ----------
The third man's Savage lie validates the first man's Noble claim.
---------- Post added at 06:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 AM ----------
So to put it blatantly.
If the the third man was a Noble, the first two would HAVE to be Savages.
Surely that's understandable now?
He is saying BOTH are lying. This is a lie, we know this much.
But perhaps that means only ONE is lying.
Student
06-23-2014, 02:29 PM
I Didn't Read The Whole Thread But Savage, Noble & Savage.
Edit:
Didn't Hear The First One So We Can't Conclude What He Said.
Second Guy Said The First Guy SAID He Was A Noble But Didn't Confirm Nor Deny If It Was True, Then He Went On To Claim He Was A Noble.
Third Guy Said They're Both Lying And That He's A Noble.
They Could All 3 Be Savages Since We Don't Know Who's Actually Telling The Truth.
Or Just The Last Guy Could Be A Noble Since He's The Only One Claiming Lying Was Involved In The Others Answers.
Or First 2 Guys Could Be Nobles And The Last Guy Is Lying About They're Status.
We Also Don't Necessarily Need To Meet Both Tribes Though, Since They're All In A Listening Distance They Could All Be From The Same Tribe But Since Noble's Don't Lie The Last Guy Determines Everyone's Tribe In This Scenario.
Iron Mike
06-23-2014, 02:31 PM
I Didn't Read The Whole Thread But Savage, Noble & Savage.
Why do you think the first guy was a Savage?
Student
06-23-2014, 02:45 PM
Why do you think the first guy was a Savage?
I Broke It Down Further, Read Above.
Edit: Initially I Looked At The Second Guy Saying The First Guy Said He Was A Noble Then Said He Was A Noble As The First Guy Was Lying. 3rd Guy Says Both Are Lying But Since Savages Lie (And He Mentions Lying I Assumed He Was A Savage).
ILLoKWENT
06-23-2014, 11:13 PM
Lol... shits not that complicated... the 2 important info needed is WHAT ARE THE ABSOLUTES TRUTHS.. we all know the first absolute=nobles ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH...and savages ALWAYS LIE... we know the second absolute based on the first...EVERYONE ON THE ISLAND WILL SAY THEYRE NOBLES...nobles will say theyre nobles and savages will automatically lie and claim theyre nobles as well....
So 1st dude says (not determined) 2nd dude says 1st dude claimed noble....which automatically makes 2nd dude a NOBLE... now the 3rd dude claims they are both liars... which automatically makes him a savage for contradicting the second ABSOLUTE..and since we now know that he will always lie... then logically whatever he claims has to be the EXACT OPPOSITE.... so if he claims both 1st and 2nd dude are savages.... then by the 1st ABSOLUTE.... the exact opposite is the truth..hence 1st and 2nd dudes are NOBLES..........
Hubert Cumberdale
06-23-2014, 11:32 PM
^Again though, the wording is that "Both of them are lying".
The a lie doesn't have to be the exact opposite of a truth.
Both of them are lying, as a lie, simply means that there is no possibly way that "BOTH of them are lying".
There is no way to conclude if 1 is or isn't a savage or noble.
ILLoKWENT
06-23-2014, 11:45 PM
^Again though, the wording is that "Both of them are lying".
The a lie doesn't have to be the exact opposite of a truth.
Both of them are lying, as a lie, simply means that there is no possibly way that "BOTH of them are lying".
There is no way to conclude if 1 is or isn't a savage or noble.
Its determined by deduction... we already know that regardless if the first dude wasnt heard..that he will claim noble..2nd dude confirms he is a noble by telling the truth.. and using that info.. we can now determine that The last dudes a savage..and anything he says is a lie... so if he says both are savages...then they are nobles..lol.. theres no way around it..
ILLoKWENT
06-23-2014, 11:48 PM
Both of them are lying means theres no possible way both of them are lying?.... this statement is self contradicting....
ViTRiOL
06-24-2014, 12:14 AM
So to put it blatantly.
If the the third man was a Noble, the first two would HAVE to be Savages.
Surely that's understandable now?
... sigh.
Hubert Cumberdale
06-24-2014, 12:27 AM
Both of them are lying means theres no possible way both of them are lying?.... this statement is self contradicting....
If we know he's a savage, ergo lying.
"Both of them are lying" would mean that, as this statement is a lie, that there is no conceivable way that BOTH of them are lying.
You guys are playing opposites too much.
Number 2 said that Number 1 SAID he was a noble (which is the truth). He at no point said he WAS a noble.
Number 3 said that both of them were lying. As he is a savage, this just means that one or none of them were lying.
ILLoKWENT
06-24-2014, 05:01 AM
If we know he's a savage, ergo lying.
"Both of them are lying" would mean that, as this statement is a lie, that there is no conceivable way that BOTH of them are lying.
You guys are playing opposites too much.
Number 2 said that Number 1 SAID he was a noble (which is the truth). He at no point said he WAS a noble.
Number 3 said that both of them were lying. As he is a savage, this just means that one or none of them were lying.
He said both were lying... that automatically tells u that both 1 and 2 are nobles because anything the savage says is false.. and number 1 didnt have to say anything because as soon as the savage says that BOTH ARE SAVAGES..that statement again dictates that the opposite is true... so hes basically reiterating his initial lie...
NOBLE
04-09-2017, 02:56 PM
Eth is an argumentative muhfucka...Lol!
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