Science/Religion Debate (BE RESPECTFUL)

[Obey]

I've been reading/watching a lot of Bill Nye and some creationist view-points also. I find them both interesting. Can anyone possibly educate me further on both sides? I'm starting to grow a deeper fascination for Science and the idea of a Creator. Post some interesting comments below, thanks.

[Babylon]

There is far too much information for me to simply start on something.

It's much better if you ask something or make a claim that I can attempt to refute/possibly agree with.

[Nicholas]

You can't post this thread and expect an argument not to break out hahahaha... There is a ton of interesting stuff on Youtube though... Neil DeGrasse Tyson & Richard Dawkins are my personal favorites.

[Obey]

I've watched a video with an EXCELLENT point. A book is a thought, right? It's an idea, someone's information. Information always has a mind behind it, am I correct? DNA is composed of different information about yourself which is passed on from your parents. So like a re-written book through time, there eventually had to be ONE mind behind the information. Could DNA be a good idea that there possibly was a creator? I know Bill Nye is pro-Big Bang, and he brings from valuable points about that. Who's to say God didn't create the universe and the universe didn't spawn a big bang? It could've all been a plan. I'm so brain-fucked in which way to go I almost want to just stop reading all-in-all.

[Nicholas]

I've watched a video with an EXCELLENT point. A book is a thought, right? It's an idea, someone's information. Information always has a mind behind it, am I correct? DNA is composed of different information about yourself which is passed on from your parents. So like a re-written book through time, there eventually had to be ONE mind behind the information. Could DNA be a good idea that there possibly was a creator? I know Bill Nye is pro-Big Bang, and he brings from valuable points about that. Who's to say God didn't create the universe and the universe didn't spawn a big bang? It could've all been a plan. I'm so brain-fucked in which way to go I almost want to just stop reading all-in-all.

Whaaa? There's no mind behind it, DNA being altered is a process of Evolution. Victor Mancini needs to get in on this. My knowledge of Evolution isn't great but I know enough to get by.

I don't understand this fairy tale image of god (I know you haven't mentioned this Obey). If there truly is a god, and I don't believe there is then he's the biggest scumbag in the universe. To create us, punish us for the imperfections he created, create predators and prey, pathogens and parasites that harm their hosts in the most disgusting ways, to allow poverty and war etc.

[Fidel Z]

YES! BE RESPECTFUL! lool

[Wonderbred]

This is a huge oversimplification and I'd suggest looking more into the theory, but I'm a big fan of the idea of a Spinoza's God. It basically says that the laws of physics are God's behavior. Back in the 17th and 18th centuries, people didn't try to disprove God with science or math; instead, they actually tried to get closer to him by discovering the behaviors of his universe. Personally, I accept most if not all of the mainstream science theories (big bang, evolution, etc.) but don't necessarily think that they disprove a higher power.

One of my chemistry professors, who's also a devout Christian, actually gave a TED talk on this subject awhile back.

Science vs God: Bryan Enderle at TEDxUCDavis - YouTube

[Student]

If God Made The Vast Universe (And Only One That We Can Prove So Far) Why Is Our Species So Small If We're Supposed To Be His "Chosen" Creations / "Made In His Image" (Depends On What Religion You Believe In That's Pretty Much The Gist). Wouldn't We Be On Many Planets Like Earth So We Don't Get Wiped Out As A Civilization If One "Giant" (But In Terms Of Our Galaxy Very Very Very Small) Meteorite Hits Our Planet?

Also, I Believe There Are Aliens But Not In The Traditional Sense. They're Not All Green With Giant Black Eyes And Long Fingers Waiting To Probe People. I Believe They're Like Us (But Different, They're "Normal" Appearance Would Be Different Then Ours And Their Languages Or Way Of Communication With Each Other Would Also Be Extremely Different) But Their Intellectual Prowess Isn't Nearly As Advanced As We Assume They Are. Maybe That's Why They Haven't "Found" Us Or Even Communicated, It's Not That They Don't Want To It's That They Can't. They Could Either Be Slightly More Advanced Or Even Underdeveloped (They Could Be In Their "Bronze Age" For All We Know) But The Fact Remains Is That They Haven't Reached Out To Us For A Reason.
It's Not Necessarily A Good Or Bad Thing Either. They Could Consider Murder As Simply Turning Things "Off" Or They Might Have A Sense Of Empathy But We'll Have To Find Out When It Happens.

[Nicholas]

If God Made The Vast Universe (And Only One That We Can Prove So Far)

The idea of a Multiverse is fascinating though, if you guys haven't heard of that you need to look it up. It's mind blowing. I think you can find some clips of Neil DeGrasse Tyson talking about it on Youtube.

[Dean]

A while back I watched a show, might have been beyond the wormhole, but it dealt with Parrallel universes. The type of thing where they discuss how there is an exact copy of yourself somewhere in another universe.

It was really interesting. I picked up a couple Carl Sagan books because of it. We don't have an astronomy class in our school either.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

For everyone challenging the "though process" of God, it's easily defeated by 'God works in mysterious ways". Just try and comprehend that this is an all mighty being that's power spans beyond even comprehension. You think a bit of simple logic is enough to trump the greatest power ever known?

Creationism is wrong. I'll go that war. I used to watch a lot of Kent Hovind and Venom Fang X, and creationism is incorrect full stop. But as for religion, I personally find it hard to dedicate my life to a book and some faulty accounts, but I'm not going to tell someone God ISN'T real. You can't really make "good" or "bad" points in regards to God, because our primitive logic simply won't suffice.

[Dono]

Christian god supposedly has three attributes.

God is all knowing.
God is all powerful.
God is all good.

If that's the case there should be no evil or pain in the world. Oh but you need pain to know pleasure you say? Why? I can concieve of a state of existence where you could feel pleasure and not need to know pain. If god is all knowing, he knows that. If he is all powerful he should be able to change the paramaters of our reality. If he is all good he must know that is preferential to being in pain.

So God must be lacking at least one of these attributes.......that means I'm not listening to any of the other shit in the Bible or anywhere else from these sources.

If god exists it is not in any form espouted by religion, at least Christianity. Just pure logic, don't really need examples. If someone can refute this let me know.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Christian god supposedly has three attributes.

God is all knowing.
God is all powerful.
God is all good.

If that's the case there should be no evil or pain in the world. Oh but you need pain to know pleasure you say? Why? I can concieve of a state of existence where you could feel pleasure and not need to know pain. If god is all knowing, he knows that. If he is all powerful he should be able to change the paramaters of our reality. If he is all good he must know that is preferential to being in pain.

So God must be lacking at least one of these attributes.......that means I'm not listening to any of the other shit in the Bible or anywhere else from these sources.

If god exists it is not in any form espouted by religion, at least Christianity. Just pure logic, don't really need examples. If someone can refute this let me know.

Earth is generally not conceived as heaven, specifically in Christianity as you said. Earth has pain and suffering because this is not paradise. This is the test. We go through this to prove out worth, and prove ourselves as people. God doesn't architect each person to be a good person. God doesn't control it all. Humans are born with freewill, and are not free from concious thought, so decisions are all made from us.

[Nicholas]

You can't really make "good" or "bad" points in regards to God, because our primitive logic simply won't suffice.

Seriously? My primitive logic allows me to see through the bible pretty easily. You don't need to be Einstein to pick faults in stories like Noah's Ark & Adam + Eve.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

You are taking them as literally. Jesus was infamous for telling parables. Perhaps adam and eve, noah's arc etc. are just parables which demonstrate the will of God.

[Dono]

Earth is generally not conceived as heaven, specifically in Christianity as you said. Earth has pain and suffering because this is not paradise. This is the test. We go through this to prove out worth, and prove ourselves as people. God doesn't architect each person to be a good person. God doesn't control it all. Humans are born with freewill, and are not free from concious thought, so decisions are all made from us.

I won't accept that. If god is all good he wouldn't make us suffer. He could just as easily just put us in heaven. Why not? Why only let some of your beings in? All good I would imagine means you want everyone to feel the utmost fulfillment possible, not burn in hell lmao. You can't be 'all good' and create evil.

Also, considering god made all things, we don't have any free will. He's all powerful and controls every aspect. I compare it to running a computer program. If you build a program (and had infinite knowledge) you would know exactly how whatever program you built would run. Some people are just gonna go to hell because they were made that way.

[Nicholas]

You are taking them as literally. Jesus was infamous for telling parables. Perhaps adam and eve, noah's arc etc. are just parables which demonstrate the will of God.

Let's say your God, you want to tell the world about the history of the universe and the morales they should live their lives by. Do you lay out the facts or tell a bunch of parables which can be (and are) easily misinterpreted? I thought he was omniscient? Why didn't he see that flaw coming?

[Babylon]

Earth is generally not conceived as heaven, specifically in Christianity as you said. Earth has pain and suffering because this is not paradise. This is the test. We go through this to prove out worth, and prove ourselves as people. God doesn't architect each person to be a good person. God doesn't control it all. Humans are born with freewill, and are not free from concious thought, so decisions are all made from us.

"I'm going to test you even though I already know every choice you could make and every possible outcome from said choices, rendering the entire testing phase a waste of time"

[Hubert Cumberdale]

I won't accept that. If god is all good he wouldn't make us suffer. He could just as easily just put us in heaven. Why not? Why only let some of your beings in? All good I would imagine means you want everyone to feel the utmost fulfillment possible, not burn in hell lmao. You can't be 'all good' and create evil.

Also, considering god made all things, we don't have any free will. He's all powerful and controls every aspect. I compare it to running a computer program. If you build a program (and had infinite knowledge) you would know exactly how whatever program you built would run. Some people are just gonna go to hell because they were made that way.

You can't do this conversation based off the perception you have from non scripture. God isn't all loving and peaceful. Vengeance, wrath and pain are a big part of the bible.

Again, who's to say God doesn't want to test us? My sensei is a good guy, but he doesn't just hand me a black belt. You're trying to use logic knowing NOTHING about what you're being logical about. If God is real, how do you know ANYTHING about him/her/it? The bible doesn't give many characteristics except love really, and that could be the same love as dropping your kid in the deep end of the pool.

[Dean]

The Bible clearly explains how God didnt want the Earth to be a perfect, paridse land with no suffering.

[Dono]

You can't do this conversation based off the perception you have from non scripture. God isn't all loving and peaceful. Vengeance, wrath and pain are a big part of the bible.

Again, who's to say God doesn't want to test us? My sensei is a good guy, but he doesn't just hand me a black belt. You're trying to use logic knowing NOTHING about what you're being logical about. If God is real, how do you know ANYTHING about him/her/it? The bible doesn't give many characteristics except love really, and that could be the same love as dropping your kid in the deep end of the pool.

Your sensei isn't capable of just inserting the knowledge directly into your being. God is. I've never wanted anyone who I love to feel pain, if I was capable of removing it I would do so. Especially if I controlled every aspect, I would have my loved ones in a forever idealized state.

What end could it possibly serve for God to create us, let us wander around, and damn some of us? Y'all just wanna believe there's something after you die and a higher power you can be accountable to. The bible is full of inconsistencies.

The entire concept of a test is completely pointless. Would you give out an exam to students if you KNOW without a doubt the score they will get? What good is that.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Your sensei isn't capable of just inserting the knowledge directly into your being. God is. I've never wanted anyone who I love to feel pain, if I was capable of removing it I would do so. Especially if I controlled every aspect, I would have my loved ones in a forever idealized state.

What end could it possibly serve for God to create us, let us wander around, and damn some of us? Y'all just wanna believe there's something after you die and a higher power you can be accountable to. The bible is full of inconsistencies.

The entire concept of a test is completely pointless. Would you give out an exam to students if you KNOW without a doubt the score they will get? What good is that.

You are using your love for a brother or sister, gf or whatever, as your basis. How can you possible comprehend the feelings of a GOD? God doesn't have human emotions. He's not some guy playing puppet master. You can't just use the logic you implement on your day to day life to something that could have created every single thing you've ever known.

Basically, what you're doing is being a guy in the pub saying "The Government should just kill the leader of North Korea" not thinking of allllllll the other aspects that he can't even comprehend that would come into effect.

[Student]

I'm Not Saying You Guys Are Wrong But Christianity Is Such An Easy Religion To Bash, If You Really Want To Debate Religion Vs. Science You Have To Go Back, Pr-organized Religion And Pre-symbolism And Look Into The Early Oral History Of Doctrines And Lessons Taught By People. Religion In It's Simplest Form Is Faith. Why Did Early Man Have Faith And Why Did Some Men (Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus, Confucius, Moses, etc.) Believe They Were "Chosen" To Bring About New Religions And Why Did People Choose To Follow Them And Essentially Start Organized Religion? People Thought Fire Was Magic (Black Magic At One Point Too) And Anyone Who Could "Conjure" It Was Worshiped Like A God (Also Look At Early Paganism) But Soon People Disproved That Fire Was Magic And If Simply A Reaction When Certain Elements Are Presented In Such A Fashion (First A Theory Then Easily Proven). Given That, Why Didn't People Just Dispel Early Religious Leaders And Say Everything Could Eventually Be Explained By Science They Just Haven't Reached That Level Of Intelligence Yet? Were They Gravitating Towards Faith Because They Wanted Something To Believe In, Something Better, Something To Make This All Seem Worth It? Was It Forced Onto People To Encourage Them To Work, Claiming If They Didn't They Would Rot In Hell Forever?

[The Dope Man]

Religion was created to bring order to society. It gave communities a set of morales/rules to live by & with religion & it's predicted consequences made it easy to control the general population. It also generated an income.

You know why christians/catholics have to eat fish on fridays? Because the sales on fish in Italy depleted, so the Pope initiated this rule. #TrueStory

To This Day Religion Still Controls Society.

I Don't Believe God, But It's Better To Just Accept It. If Believing In God Makes Someone a Better Person & Brings Order To Society Then WHy Not Implement Religion Into a Community.

#DopeThoughts

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

I Have Faith In Mankind, Not God.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

I'm actually in with Tha Dope Man on that. I can believe that most religions were created as an early ages book of morality.

[The Dope Man]

EtH You can't really argue that it wasn't designed to establish order and morales to live by within the community.

Obviously it's not the only purpose. I'm sure most actually believed in what they we're living by.

[Godbody]

you obviously saw the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate

here's what you need to know about creation. & my viewpoint differs from both of their views but falls more in line with Bill Nye.

we've been alive for longer than you know. how long, i dont know. but longer than the age you have. we start off as micro organisms and we've evolved into humans. so its safe to say we've been around thousands of years to say the least. Bill Nye said we were created from star matter. Its true. We're a part of the universe. We're just one organism of many. Star matter. Matter that moves and gets transferred but never destroyed

& religion is a control mechanism. i've said it about 100 times on here but apparently people like to bring it up

[Student]

you obviously saw the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate

here's what you need to know about creation. & my viewpoint differs from both of their views but falls more in line with Bill Nye.

we've been alive for longer than you know. how long, i dont know. but longer than the age you have. we start off as micro organisms and we've evolved into humans. so its safe to say we've been around thousands of years to say the least. Bill Nye said we were created from star matter. Its true. We're a part of the universe. We're just one organism of many. Star matter. Matter that moves and gets transferred but never destroyed

& religion is a control mechanism. i've said it about 100 times on here but apparently people like to bring it up
You've Said A Lot Of Things 100's Of Times. #BoyWhoCriedWolf

[The Dope Man]

Godbody I've never watched Bill Nye Or Anyone.. I formed those ideas from schoolin & learning facts then i derive a conclusion.

[Godbody]

Im talkin to Obey Dope Man

& Student , Boy Who Cried Wolf is about someone who lied that eventually told the truth and nobody believed him. I aint ever lie doe

You either have the knowledge I have or you dont. & Its not in your brain cuz ya soul carries it over