If you believe in God

[SH1T L0RD]

as an ALL powerful being. infinite in every sense of the word.. wouldn't he then be able to create a being greater than himself? if he can't then he is imperfect and ceases to be God. if he can, and does, then there is a being greater than God, and God ceases to be God. If he can and chooses not to then he is witholding greater goods from the universe for what other than selfish reasons?... an imperfection, and thus ceases to be God.

[NOBLE]

unless...God cannot create anything other than himself.

[SH1T L0RD]

to say that god "can't" create something is to say he is not all powerful

---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 PM ----------

man thats tight iv never read that argument made i just came to it sitting and thinking... i feel ancient

[NOBLE]

Its actually very similar to the classic Epecurean argument...which states that if we acknowledge that evil exists in the world, then God cannot be both omnipotent (all-powerful) and omni-benevolent (all good) at the same time. Evil must exist either because (A) God lets it exist or because (B) God can't stop it from happening.
If (A) and God lets evil exist, then he is obviously NOT omni-benevolent. If (B) and God can't stop evil from happening, then he must not be omnipotent.
The favorite theodicy for explaining this is that evil comes out of free will.
But as far as God not being able to "create" something, whatever he "creates" must ultimately be from himself...so is the "creation" really something other than God? And if he were to create something that is considered greater than himself, but that creation is still in essence God himself, then he would still be the most powerful being.

[SH1T L0RD]

true... ok im dropping this one, it just gets circular.. but i have another theory iv come to in my meditations....

at the end of the day, for good or evil, humans follow the main path laid out for them.

lemme explain this

lets say, some kids dad is a missionary, his whole family works as missionaries. in order for him to not be exiled from his loved ones, he pretty much must work as a missionary or some other righteous act. To live an evil life would mean exile. plus he sees how its done and it is made simple for him. so he follows the trail blazed for him.

like wise, some kids dad is a CEO of an aggressive oil drilling company. the company has been passed down through his family and to not take his fathers seat would isolate him from the family. so he takes the path laid out for him, most likely. again he sees the ropes of this company, any other occupation seems foreign to him, this was what he was raised knowing how to do.

at the end of the day these two people did the same thing, just different outcomes.
if either of them wanted to be evil instead of good or vise versa, they would have to isolate themselves from the ones they love and pretty much redefine who they are, a very difficult task that most people wouldn't undertake unless inspired by another trail blazer who can shed light on different paths and lifes they can lead.

and the more people take one path, the easier it looks... in a literal sense think of a lot of people taking one path through the woods rather than the other. you're going to look at those woods and take the path with all the brush pushed aside rather than the rugged one. fuck if enough people walk on it one day it might be a road, for more people to walk. maybe later a highway... once a path has set that kind of president its almost impossible to vere away confidently


u follow?

---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

its a new theory.. still hammering it out

[NOBLE]

I follow. Are you mainly arguing that people are products of their environments or that our actions are mostly governed by what is convenient?

[SH1T L0RD]

a combination of the two

[Lizman]

He Created A Being Greater Than Himself
He Created Us

[Interp]

God is great...




















God is good...





Let us thank him for our food..


Amen

[Krhyme Killz]

the entire concept of a 'god' lacks any possible reason. thus the term 'faith'

[Jack Swagger]

This is rather interesting....
Mainly because when it comes to "God", there is usually a lot of ignorance that follows. But seeing as everyone is dropping in knowledgeable stuff, I'm interested...

[Dono]

Religion is a social construct but the feeling of 'god' or religious awe, or oneness with the universe or whatever you'd like to call has some sort of evolutionary purpose. This religious type feeling has been linked to certain areas of the brain firing at the same time. So things that feel like miracles are actually internal instead of external, however, people can simultaniously experience these things if all their brains are firing the same. Coooooool right?

Anyway

You say 'switch between good and evil' like they're pre-determined. Good and evil are also social constructs, generally imposed through religion. If you grew up in a society where murder for sport and shitting on people were the norm, you'd find absolutely nothing wrong with it. Look in the past, Aztecs made human sacrifices to their gods. Did they think it was evil? No. No one in their society batted an eye at it. That's just how it was done. There is absolutely no objective good or evil, good and evil change over time to fit our perceptions of it.

People are absolutely a product of their social environment, it's more than just their family environment. We are a combination of our experiences balanced against our personality, represented in our genes. If you have poppa CEO, and you grow up in his business and dislike something about it, say one of the upper executives was rude to you and you're already genetically a pretty easygoing/shy person who hates conflict, then you have an amazing experience with painting a picture at school or something, you're likely to come out as an artist instead of a CEO. Now a lot of the time, you're gonna see family genes for personality matching up pretty well with occupations or whatnot, plus family has a huge control over what kind of experiences you're going to have. That's why there are a ton of family businesses, but that's not ALWAYS the case. It's just a combination of what you happen to experience, same as religion. Conversions generally happen when people experience events they cannot explain/understand as anything other than god or some other higher power. Likewise, de-conversions usually happen when events show incompatibility with the person's god or higher power and cannot be explained by them. But it's hard to get out when one of the explanations is 'well god is more awesome than me so he knows and I dont'.
My examples are super watered down compared to reality, but I think you get the gist. More or less I agree with you, it's the just scope of events you're looking at is too narrow. It's not just family. It's everything. Events vs. Knowledge vs. Personality




Also, try this one:

If God is all knowing/benevolent/powerful

Why not just make a world without pain in it?
Why not just make us all perfect?

Surely if I can think of these things he can. If he is all benevolent he should not force us to suffer. Especially if he is all powerful and can change anything and is all knowing and knows it's miserable for us.


If God is all knowing, why send us here?

He already knows EVERY action we will take and since he is all powerful and created us he either dooms us to hell or heaven since he is the one determining all our actions and attributes.

[Revan]

http://thetimothyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/0630091107a.jpg

[Student]

If You Believe In "God" You Believe In Monotheistic Doctrines So Therefore There Can't Be Another "More Powerful" God Cause There's Only One. Well According To Your "Faith" There Is...

[Lizman]

Religion is a social construct but the feeling of 'god' or religious awe, or oneness with the universe or whatever you'd like to call has some sort of evolutionary purpose. This religious type feeling has been linked to certain areas of the brain firing at the same time. So things that feel like miracles are actually internal instead of external, however, people can simultaniously experience these things if all their brains are firing the same. Coooooool right?

Anyway

You say 'switch between good and evil' like they're pre-determined. Good and evil are also social constructs, generally imposed through religion. If you grew up in a society where murder for sport and shitting on people were the norm, you'd find absolutely nothing wrong with it. Look in the past, Aztecs made human sacrifices to their gods. Did they think it was evil? No. No one in their society batted an eye at it. That's just how it was done. There is absolutely no objective good or evil, good and evil change over time to fit our perceptions of it.

People are absolutely a product of their social environment, it's more than just their family environment. We are a combination of our experiences balanced against our personality, represented in our genes. If you have poppa CEO, and you grow up in his business and dislike something about it, say one of the upper executives was rude to you and you're already genetically a pretty easygoing/shy person who hates conflict, then you have an amazing experience with painting a picture at school or something, you're likely to come out as an artist instead of a CEO. Now a lot of the time, you're gonna see family genes for personality matching up pretty well with occupations or whatnot, plus family has a huge control over what kind of experiences you're going to have. That's why there are a ton of family businesses, but that's not ALWAYS the case. It's just a combination of what you happen to experience, same as religion. Conversions generally happen when people experience events they cannot explain/understand as anything other than god or some other higher power. Likewise, de-conversions usually happen when events show incompatibility with the person's god or higher power and cannot be explained by them. But it's hard to get out when one of the explanations is 'well god is more awesome than me so he knows and I dont'.
My examples are super watered down compared to reality, but I think you get the gist. More or less I agree with you, it's the just scope of events you're looking at is too narrow. It's not just family. It's everything. Events vs. Knowledge vs. Personality




Also, try this one:

If God is all knowing/benevolent/powerful

Why not just make a world without pain in it?
Why not just make us all perfect?

Surely if I can think of these things he can. If he is all benevolent he should not force us to suffer. Especially if he is all powerful and can change anything and is all knowing and knows it's miserable for us.


If God is all knowing, why send us here?

He already knows EVERY action we will take and since he is all powerful and created us he either dooms us to hell or heaven since he is the one determining all our actions and attributes.

Because Its A Test And All That Bull
And I Believe That Their Belief Is That He Isn't Determining Al Our Actions

[Dono]

You can't be independent from god otherwise he isn't all powerful in creating you. How is it a test if you already know what each of your students can and can't learn and what the outcome will be for any situation they are placed in because you 'programmed' them that way?

That's like testing the calculator program on your computer to see if it will build you a cake. You know it won't.

[Lizman]

You can't be independent from god otherwise he isn't all powerful in creating you. How is it a test if you already know what each of your students can and can't learn and what the outcome will be for any situation they are placed in because you 'programmed' them that way?

That's like testing the calculator program on your computer to see if it will build you a cake. You know it won't.

I Wasn't Suggesting That You're All Independent.
Its A Test As The Process Is Different For Each Individual.
And With The Right Guidance An Apple Can Become An Orange.

[SH1T L0RD]

You can't be independent from god otherwise he isn't all powerful in creating you. How is it a test if you already know what each of your students can and can't learn and what the outcome will be for any situation they are placed in because you 'programmed' them that way?

That's like testing the calculator program on your computer to see if it will build you a cake. You know it won't.

theologians would argue that part of God's design for us was free will

our reason + free will has the potential to be perfect, if used correctly. theoretically.
If god were to GIVE us the answer intrinsically, then his creation of free will would have no purpose, making an imperfect creation, making god imperfect.

so basically God DID make us perfect, he just gave us the ability to achieve that perfectness.

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

but then i would argue.. why didn't he just make our reason flawless. so that we were still making decisions, we were just always making the 'right' ones according to God.


to be honest these philosophers were just trying to not get hung up or exiled so they put God in their shit...

take for example descartes. the dude said, 'what if the world i perceive is created by an evil demon to deceive me'
that would mean one of three things
1. the demon is more powerful than god
2. god does not exist
3. god is complacent in evil

so Gods evil...

basically the dude wanted to say "what if God is tricking us?" but he couldn't say that so he figured out a way around it that pretty much says the same shit but doesn't hurt anyones feelings

im pretty sure these guys were just arguing for ideas like infinity and replacing it with 'god'

[Letum]

God is . . . . . . the energy of the universe. He/she/it/nothing it is in everything, every person, every place and every thought. I believe religion is a very twisted tool to use on weak minded sheep to keep the 'flock' civil. However that does not mean there is no place for faith and searching for something greater than yourself/ideals. I think we will never fully grasp what that feeling is of something else. But I also think as long as we question that feeling we are on the right path. iono I'm goofy tho

[Jack Swagger]

Only in death do we find absolution. Only in death, do we truly know if there is a God or not.
:high:

[NOBLE]

Well, unless you've died and came back, there's no telling absolutely whether we would know one way or the other after death or if even our individual consciousness would still be intact.
I think "reality" is relative...so the question of whether something (God, Bugs Bunny, etc) exists in "reality" or not is a null point. EVERYTHING exists in relative reality. As soon as you have a name or an idea attached to it, it exists...even if only as a name or an idea.
Is Bugs Bunny real? Of course he's real. He might not be an actual walking, talking rabbit, but he IS a REAL cartoon character.
So God definitely exists...that's not a question. The question is what he exists AS. An actual omnipotent being? A figment of some people's imagination? A fictional character who appears in different versions of antiquated manuscripts?

[Óðinn]

as an ALL powerful being. infinite in every sense of the word.. wouldn't he then be able to create a being greater than himself? if he can't then he is imperfect and ceases to be God. if he can, and does, then there is a being greater than God, and God ceases to be God. If he can and chooses not to then he is witholding greater goods from the universe for what other than selfish reasons?... an imperfection, and thus ceases to be God.

If he posses the knowledge of creating something greater than himself, he need not to, as it already exist's with in his knowledge.

There for he needs not to create something 'greater' than himself, as he would already Be greater than himself by knowing of that very knowledge.

Edit: didn't read the other posts...an won't either.

[Jack Swagger]

Hold on, I'm gonna go test this death theory.
*Exit's thread*

[SH1T L0RD]

If he posses the knowledge of creating something greater than himself, he need not to, as it already exist's with in his knowledge.

There for he needs not to create something 'greater' than himself, as he would already Be greater than himself by knowing of that very knowledge.

Edit: didn't read the other posts...an won't either.

heres the deal cuz.... i figured it out

if god creates something greater than god, that creation is still a creation of his. god was created by nothing and thats what would make him greater than even something he created to be greater than himself, because that something would have a creator.

[Óðinn]

heres the deal cuz.... i figured it out

if god creates something greater than god, that creation is still a creation of his. god was created by nothing and thats what would make him greater than even something he created to be greater than himself, because that something would have a creator.

But he wouldn't need to create something 'greater' as he would already be greater by possessing the knowledge of creating something greater.

Therefore, he wouldn't actually be creating something greater....but rather, he would be learning/evolving into something greater, while still being himself.

[SH1T L0RD]

true, well put

[Óðinn]

Thank you :D... lol

[NOBLE]

It is hard, if not impossible to quantify how many degrees of reality exist between two different perceptions. Even if we take a simple example like the question "What time is it right now?" For many of us, the answer will be different because we live in different time zones and continents. So who would be right in that scenario? Even the rate at which time flows for each one of us is probably different, however minute that difference is. How fast you are moving and how high up you live (further away from Earth's gravity) affects the rate at which time flows for you.
We probably all have different definitions for what "God" is. Unyqe called it "the energy of the universe." What if my definition for "God" is water? You may present an argument that water doesn't fit some criteria and should not be considered "God", but you cannot make the argument (and win) that water does not exist.
The point I'm trying to make is: The answer to the question "Does God exist" is relative. It is possible that "God", based on some people's definitions, literally exists in reality for them if no one else.

[Óðinn]

^But that wasn't the question... :high:

Still well put though. Thing is... time is a collective (Earth as One) we all move together (Earth as one). Our time (Earth as a whole) is one. Movement around the sun, the axis tilt etc...all one.

[NOBLE]

^But that wasn't the question... :high:

Still well put though. Thing is... time is a collective (Earth as One) we all move together (Earth as one). Our time (Earth as a whole) is one. Movement around the sun, the axis tilt etc...all one.

Not true. Time is relative...hence Einstein's "General Theory of RELATIVITY" that deals with time and space. They've done experiments where they placed atomic clocks on airplanes, synchronized them with atomic clocks on the ground, then flew the airplanes around the world. When it was all said and done, the atomic clocks on the planes were 1/6,000,000th of a second ahead of the ones on the ground. That is a very minute difference that would not be noticeable by any of us, but its still a real difference. So somebody flying on a plane right now is actually experiencing time at a very slightly different rate than you.

[Óðinn]

^ i am aware of that... i meant on a grander scale of things...Outside of our world/atmosphere.

I mean this thread is about God....not about us. We have diff time On/within/all around our planet. But outside it, is a diff story.

[SH1T L0RD]

Noble your missing the point of all these arguments... i don't care about your subjective view of God or Morality

im giving specific criteria (Christian God for 1st argument. North American standard of good/evil for 2nd argument) then arguing the logistics of it

get outta here with that 'everything is subjective' shit

[NOBLE]

Noble your missing the point of all these arguments... i don't care about your subjective view of God or Morality

im giving specific criteria (Christian God for 1st argument. North American standard of good/evil for 2nd argument) then arguing the logistics of it

get outta here with that 'everything is subjective' shit

Nah son. The question you asked to begin with was illogical.

as an ALL powerful being. infinite in every sense of the word.. wouldn't he then be able to create a being greater than himself?

Any logical question includes an idea that invites an answer, even if that idea is not very clear or well defined. Nothing is "greater" than infinity by definition, so to ask "wouldn't an infinite being be able to create a being "greater" than himself" doesn't make sense...unless you're talking "greater" in a subjective sense.

[Student]

Should You Really Be Concerned Though? Billions Of People Have Pondered This Since The Existence Of Man But Not One Has Even Been Considered To Be Remotely Correct And Accepted Universally As The "Truth".
We Should Just Try To Live Our Lives Decently While We're On This "Journey" Cause We All Have The Same "Exit", Death. Only Then (And Even Then We Might Not Know) What Is Actually Going On.

[SH1T L0RD]

yo anyone not trying to debate this gtfo

---------- Post added at 10:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------

:cmonson:Nah son. The question you asked to begin with was illogical.



Any logical question includes an idea that invites an answer, even if that idea is not very clear or well defined. Nothing is "greater" than infinity by definition, so to ask "wouldn't an infinite being be able to create a being "greater" than himself" doesn't make sense...unless you're talking "greater" in a subjective sense.

i mean greater in whatever makes god infinitely great. to say there is nothing greater than infinite so god can't create it is saying god does not have infinite creative powers.. but we already got to the answer of this, anything created by god is lesser than god for having a creator

[Lizman]

theologians would argue that part of God's design for us was free will

our reason + free will has the potential to be perfect, if used correctly. theoretically.
If god were to GIVE us the answer intrinsically, then his creation of free will would have no purpose, making an imperfect creation, making god imperfect.

so basically God DID make us perfect, he just gave us the ability to achieve that perfectness.

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

but then i would argue.. why didn't he just make our reason flawless. so that we were still making decisions, we were just always making the 'right' ones according to God.


to be honest these philosophers were just trying to not get hung up or exiled so they put God in their shit...

take for example descartes. the dude said, 'what if the world i perceive is created by an evil demon to deceive me'
that would mean one of three things
1. the demon is more powerful than god
2. god does not exist
3. god is complacent in evil

so Gods evil...

basically the dude wanted to say "what if God is tricking us?" but he couldn't say that so he figured out a way around it that pretty much says the same shit but doesn't hurt anyones feelings

im pretty sure these guys were just arguing for ideas like infinity and replacing it with 'god'


The Perceptions Of Evil That We Abide By Are Only Meant For Us

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

Also
Finiteness Is Greater Than Infinity In Value

[Erupt da Monsta]

true... ok im dropping this one, it just gets circular.. but i have another theory iv come to in my meditations....

at the end of the day, for good or evil, humans follow the main path laid out for them.

lemme explain this

lets say, some kids dad is a missionary, his whole family works as missionaries. in order for him to not be exiled from his loved ones, he pretty much must work as a missionary or some other righteous act. To live an evil life would mean exile. plus he sees how its done and it is made simple for him. so he follows the trail blazed for him.

like wise, some kids dad is a CEO of an aggressive oil drilling company. the company has been passed down through his family and to not take his fathers seat would isolate him from the family. so he takes the path laid out for him, most likely. again he sees the ropes of this company, any other occupation seems foreign to him, this was what he was raised knowing how to do.

at the end of the day these two people did the same thing, just different outcomes.
if either of them wanted to be evil instead of good or vise versa, they would have to isolate themselves from the ones they love and pretty much redefine who they are, a very difficult task that most people wouldn't undertake unless inspired by another trail blazer who can shed light on different paths and lifes they can lead.

and the more people take one path, the easier it looks... in a literal sense think of a lot of people taking one path through the woods rather than the other. you're going to look at those woods and take the path with all the brush pushed aside rather than the rugged one. fuck if enough people walk on it one day it might be a road, for more people to walk. maybe later a highway... once a path has set that kind of president its almost impossible to vere away confidently


u follow?

---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

its a new theory.. still hammering it out

Read the book "Brave New World" if you havent already

[SH1T L0RD]

already have, didn't give it it's due though

[Óðinn]

NOBLE If God gives you a watch, are you honoring Him more by asking Him what time it is or by simply consulting the watch?

[NOBLE]

NOBLE If God gives you a watch, are you honoring Him more by asking Him what time it is or by simply consulting the watch?

I'm not sure exactly where you are getting at. I don't believe in a personal God so I wouldn't know much about honoring him.

[Óðinn]

Not really getting at anything tbh...just popped into my head, i read it the other day an it popped into my head, as we were going on about time lool

[Lizman]

NOBLE If God gives you a watch, are you honoring Him more by asking Him what time it is or by simply consulting the watch?

If He Simply Gives Me The Watch,
It Would Be Dishonorable To Ask For The Time

[Óðinn]

If He Simply Gives Me The Watch,
It Would Be Dishonorable To Ask For The Time

Only thing God would give you....is a Back Hander