Voting Power...

[NOBLE]

I think the current system we have is wonderful, but there are a couple of problem areas I think we have the ability to solve and make the system even more ideal.


If you look at our admin logs, the net movement of voting power changes from our collective actions is that we lower voting power a lot more than we raise it.
Once someone's voting power has been lowered, we don't have an outlined path/recourse for them to have their voting power eventually restored.
When we lower voting power, it happens anonymously and most people don't know when and why they lost their voting power.
People carry lowered voting power for extended periods of time. Someone may have had their vp lowered over 6 months even years ago, but has since then become a much more conscious voter. So their votes counting as 0 in current battles means that battles aren't registering the accurate merits of votes cast today.
There are often incredible battle results where someone may have 5 votes to one, but the person with 1 vote wins because their voter was the only one with voting power. Some get a mod to "fix" it, but a lot don't because they don't want to appear as bitching.


Does anyone else see this as a problem? If so, how can we go about solving this?
DaMostH8ed Danger Rich Murderous Swag Phil Banks SWAVY Krhyme Killz RULE AfterThought Jason RhetoriK Teek UNKNOWN ARTIST 2FUEL Mindless Miqueas Pugz

[AfterThought]

I think if we can somehow have the ability to lower VP for a specific period of time (similar to infractions), that would be great. Then maybe the mod who lowered the VP would get a notification to re-adjust the user's VP after his penalty is done, keepin it a 0 or raising it would be the mod's decision.

[John Wick]

I think if we can somehow have the ability to lower VP for a specific period of time (similar to infractions), that would be great. Then maybe the mod who lowered the VP would get a notification to re-adjust the user's VP after his penalty is done, keepin it a 0 or raising it would be the mod's decision.

This is true :high:

[NOBLE]

I think if we can somehow have the ability to lower VP for a specific period of time (similar to infractions), that would be great. Then maybe the mod who lowered the VP would get a notification to re-adjust the user's VP after his penalty is done, keepin it a 0 or raising it would be the mod's decision.

That is an excellent idea AfterThought! However, I think that might require some coding expertise which we might not have access to? I don't think the fact that we don't have a coder should prevent us from tackling certain issues in other ways. If we couldn't code an automatic timer of vp lowering as you have suggested, how else do you think we can go about trying to fix this?

[Óðinn]

Don't lower VP....just go to there house an punch the shit outta them....Walk away sayin' "You Know What Thats For......Compliments of LB".

haha nah, uhm...i don't know to be honest...what also need's to be fixed is the voting system on tourney's that UNKNOWN ARTIST has said repeatedly as well as what you have brought to the table NOBLE. TBH i think @X can do these things anyway?? I know he can change the outcome of the votes on the tournaments & that should be one of the first things addressed.

As for VP lowering...maybe if we have an Extra forum in the staff lounge (for now) with each Mod having there OWN thread (this will make finding which VP you lowered easier for us all) and when ever you lower someone's VP you go to your VP Lowering Thread an place the Member in questions name & along with the battle you lowered the VP on in there too followed by a time length. This way we can keep track of the VP being lowered & when they are to be hired again.

[UNKNOWN ARTIST]

Bad votes deserve low vp ... There loads of people out there who don't deserve their vp being automatically raised every few months

If you see somebody dropping good unbaised explained votes and their vp is low... Raise it... Simple


Why over complicate things

I don't think we need to be sitting working out unnecessary solutions to mild issues

The focus should be more on bigger issues getting sorted out first like tournament vp and weighted staff vote system

[NOBLE]

That's a pretty good idea 2FUEL. I'm sure X or any really good coder could solve a lot of our problems. It's been really hard to get any coding changes done around here though, and right now, I'm on the mindset of fixing stuff anyways with our limited resources. Like how we found an alternative around not having mod access in the LB chatroom, which required coding apparently in order to change what was embedded, I feel like a lot of these problems can actually be solved if we put our minds together and come up with a policy that is sound.
I like where you are going with creating our own logs of vp lowering in a separate forum. However, I feel like we would need to ensure that everyone is actually logging the vp changes they make. Perhaps we would need the Head Mods to look after that? And also, what about notifying users when their vp has been lowered? It's one thing if we log when we lower their vp and how long it is to be lowered for. But I still feel people should know when their vp has been lowered (maybe not everyone). How would we go about resolving that?

[Krhyme Killz]

Bad votes deserve low vp ... There loads of people out there who don't deserve their vp being automatically raised every few months

If you see somebody dropping good unbaised explained votes and their vp is low... Raise it... Simple


Why over complicate things

I don't think we need to be sitting working out unnecessary solutions to mild issues

The focus should be more on bigger issues getting sorted out first like tournament vp and weighted staff vote system

yupppppppppppp

[NOBLE]

UNKNOWN ARTIST
Bad votes deserve low vp ...
I think everyone would agree with you here.

There loads of people out there who don't deserve their vp being automatically raised every few months. If you see somebody dropping good unbaised explained votes and their vp is low... Raise it... Simple
People's vp being lowered indefinitely is not a good thing. Its not a good thing for a lot of the same reasons infraction bans aren't given indefinitely. A lot of the time when mods lower vp, its based on ONE instance of poor voting. People sometimes improve in voting and their prospect of doing so would likely increase if they actually KNEW their vp was lowered in the first place and why. Bad voting stands out a lot more than good voting does. Because when someone gives a well-explained vote, we feel like that should be the norm. So we end up lowering vp a lot more than we raise it. That's evident in the admin logs.

Why over complicate things
I don't think we need to be sitting working out unnecessary solutions to mild issues
You think having probably 50% of the site's voters at 0vp is a mild issue? Even if it was a mild issue, you think that means we shouldn't take any measures towards solving it?

The focus should be more on bigger issues getting sorted out first like tournament vp and weighted staff vote system
I agree with you that tournament vp and weighted staff vp is another big issue. But the fact is, these two issues aren't contingent. We could resolve issues relating to vp on regular battles without tackling tournamet vp issues and vice versa. I personally don't see why we can't come up with non-coding solutions to both simultaneously. But I don't think the fact that another non-contingent problem exists means we shouldn't do anything about a problem we can very much solve.

[Krhyme Killz]

UNKNOWN ARTIST
Bad votes deserve low vp ...
I think everyone would agree with you here.

There loads of people out there who don't deserve their vp being automatically raised every few months. If you see somebody dropping good unbaised explained votes and their vp is low... Raise it... Simple
People's vp being lowered indefinitely is not a good thing. Its not a good thing for a lot of the same reasons infraction bans aren't given indefinitely. A lot of the time when mods lower vp, its based on ONE instance of poor voting. People sometimes improve in voting and their prospect of doing so would likely increase if they actually KNEW their vp was lowered in the first place and why. Bad voting stands out a lot more than good voting does. Because when someone gives a well-explained vote, we feel like that should be the norm. So we end up lowering vp a lot more than we raise it. That's evident in the admin logs.

Why over complicate things
I don't think we need to be sitting working out unnecessary solutions to mild issues
You think having probably 50% of the site's voters at 0vp is a mild issue? Even if it was a mild issue, you think that means we shouldn't take any measures towards solving it?

The focus should be more on bigger issues getting sorted out first like tournament vp and weighted staff vote system
I agree with you that tournament vp and weighted staff vp is another big issue. But the fact is, these two issues aren't contingent. We could resolve issues relating to vp on regular battles without tackling tournamet vp issues and vice versa. I personally don't see why we can't come up with non-coding solutions to both simultaneously. But I don't think the fact that another non-contingent problem exists means we shouldn't do anything about a problem we can very much solve.


but NOBLE...the point is, this is only an issue because we are more vigilant in lowering VP but never upping it...i'm guilty of it too..i probably lower vs. up VP in a 25:1 ratio. doing anything automatically...at least to me...only further complicates and worsens the issue. for every one person that needs their VP upped, there are 15 people who need it to stay low. so if it was automatic, we'd be lowering it 15 times, then turning around and lowering it AGAIN 14 times for the same folks

[NOBLE]

but NOBLE...the point is, this is only an issue because we are more vigilant in lowering VP but never upping it...i'm guilty of it too..i probably lower vs. up VP in a 25:1 ratio. doing anything automatically...at least to me...only further complicates and worsens the issue. for every one person that needs their VP upped, there are 15 people who need it to stay low. so if it was automatic, we'd be lowering it 15 times, then turning around and lowering it AGAIN 14 times for the same folks

Alright. So maybe it doesn't have to be "automatic." I don't think anyone even used the word "automatic" until UA's comment. AfterThought had suggested " lower[ing] VP for a specific period of time" but he also said that after that time period, "keepin it a 0 or raising it would be the mod's decision." So, of course we're going to use our discretion and better judgement before restoring their VP and not do it "automatically." The point is we should probably start logging these actions individually and setting a time for review to see if the person's vp should be raised rather than leaving it lowered indefinitely. Notifying users when their vp has been lowered seems to be in order as well.

[UNKNOWN ARTIST]

Krhyme explained it perfectly

Seems like your looking for an over complicated answer

If you feel certain people shouldn't have 0vp any more then raise it

[RhetoriK]

After reading all of the comments. Here's my take.


Let's be realists here. Coding changes won't be made immediately. We're checking battles for the most part, but going through the comments, and recognizing good votes could help.

There are bigger VP issues in the mix as stated by UA, but as far as implementing a system, that seems painstaking at minimum. Mods: Just be vigilant with who you're lowering/raising. If someone steps their game up, give them a bump.
Otherwise, the VP should stay lower. We run the risk of stepping on each other's toes with a bunch of raising though. If Krhyme raises person-X's VP and AT lowers it. It causes flux in the system.

We should probably address our procedure when we do lower vp. Perhaps when we lower vp (lets say someone finally hits 0VP) send a warning/infraction as well for visibility to the other mods. This method takes a little more time, but it ups our accountability in terms of knowing what the staff is doing with individual instances of vp +/-

I like the idea of having a systematic approach, but that's lightyears away. Let's try to agree on a method of accountability when lowering vp.

[NOBLE]

I agree that whatever non-coding solution we come up with would require a little more work from us as mods, but I think "Accountability" is what it all boils down to. I'm not necessarily looking for something "overly complicated" either. I'm only asking questions. I think we're a group of smart individuals. We all recognize what the problem is, no matter how mildly or severely we perceive it to be. I don't see why we can't brainstorm and come up with a solution that would require minimal effort--other than the status quo. Also, we all recognize that there is a problem with tournament vp's. Can anyone suggest a non-coding solution to this until we can get X or someone else to change how tourney results are determined? I know UA had suggested deleting the 0vp votes before, but I forget why we stopped doing that.

[Óðinn]

Pugz to holla at X with this Tournament voting ish.... Put gun to his head if needs be looool

On the real's though, the tournament thing should be handled already...I'd say Pugz might be able to do it, i don't know if he can or can't, either way lets get that one sorted....Been to long.


:monkey:

[Teek]

I agree that something should be worked on as far as accountability.

Reading through the thread, Probably the EASIEST way to accomplish the whole lowering VP/ notification/accountability thing would just be to infract every time we lower VP, even if it's marked as a warning (so no points are added).

This notfies the voter with a msg on what happened/why and how to get it reinstated in the future.

It notifies staff by letting everyone know VP was lowered, so we don't step on toes and reup right behind them.

I'm also for the idea of reading through comments and upping VP more as we look at battles we come across if we feel that person deserves it. By having the above record of who does what, it'll be easier to keep in mind who not to up. So basically the only bit of work put in is the actual infraction, which if you're lowering it for a reason, should probably get the infraction anyway.

As for the Tourney stuff, I believe we need to work on something soon with the LBT coming up. I'm sure if we toss around ideas, something can be adressed before the first votes drop. If we can't get shit coded, maybe deleting the 0vp's manually is the only solution. It's a simple out.

[Krhyme Killz]

would users knowing that their VP was lowered discourage them from voting at all?

[Óðinn]

would users knowing that their VP was lowered discourage them from voting at all?

Yeah that's a good point tbh....that could also lead us down the road of "Random Votes" just to get credits, since there VP lowered, they won't really care as much as they did before they knew there VP was lowered.

[UNKNOWN ARTIST]

When ohs found out he had 0vp he never shut up about it to the point it got annoying as fuck ... It never made him vote any fairer either ... Dropping 10-1 votes with the expo "Your a Fag" .. Lol

[RhetoriK]

would users knowing that their VP was lowered discourage them from voting at all?

Does it matter how motivated they are to vote when they're shit's zeroed though? lol


No I get you.. I think we should formally infract (no warn) when the VP is Zeroed. At that point it won't matter how butt hurt they get. They can choose to fix their game up or just ..die for all I care. That's three strikes in my book. if they continue voting with 0VP then we'll evaluate as we see fit. If they leave the site. Good riddance.

[Krhyme Killz]

i really think things are best when you dont know your VP. that way there can be no question of your motives in your vote (other than being a dickryder or hater...which will not really change).

really thinking about it...when i see someone with zero VP, and they happened to vote correctly on the battle...my thought is that even a broken clock is right twice a day. its hard to justify moving someone from zero to me. the way i see it...if a mod lowered you to 1, and then someone else lowered you to zero then you would really need to show some really good comments for me to up you a point. i think in general people either care about voting or they dont. the REAL problem is UNEDUCATED voters who leave what appears to be a good expo, but they are just dead wrong most of the time *ahem* VERITY AND FIJI OSA...

i always wondered why the system couldnt just weigh VP. for instance, if you vote for what turned out to be the loser of the battle, your VP goes down by .5% every time it happens. if you vote for the winner, it goes up by .25%. that way, REALLY consist good voting can go up in small increments, and poor voting eliminates itself in smaller increments.

[RhetoriK]

Could a possible scenario be:

Everyone starts with 2VP so..

First Occurance: -1vp (no warning/infraction)
2nd occurance: -1vp (with infraction/warning depending on the severity)

Admin/Head Mods Only: Can re-raise vp if they see it working OR if a suggestion if made by staff to + someones VP


Sounds like a non-coded way to make the way we handle this uniform?

Krhyme Killz NOBLE UNKNOWN ARTIST

[NOBLE]

As far as the tournaments go...I think I remember RULE suggesting that on top of deleting the 0vp votes (not comments) we can also bump all of our multi accounts to 6 and vote with those instead. Some of the multi accounts have never been in a tourney though so I don't know how they'll be able to vote.

[Pugz]

I did a little research... I have the ability to change every users VP to 0 in one shot... I suggest we do this.. and never go higher than +1 vp for anyone... Staff/FVC should be the only with +1... I think if we deviate from that number there is the potential for fuckery on battle votes.. your thoughts

[NOBLE]

Would that mean staff votes will be the only ones that count?

[Revan]

Chaning everyones VP to 0 would be more of an issue to be fair.

Personally i think how it is atm is fine.

[Óðinn]

Yeah, if every one's VP becomes 0 there'll be a HUGE amount of battles that'll be fucked up

[UNKNOWN ARTIST]

Vp is fine the way it is.... My only issue is tournament vp

Did u notice if Is there anything you can do with that?

[NOBLE]

...wasn't suggesting we get rid of voting power. I was more so looking for a more effective way of managing it.